The Description of Country Music

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 30 Aug 2005 9:26 am

It seems alot of us are of the opinion that real country music doesnt exist anymore. I would imagine that is because of the huge rock influence thats present in the country songs we hear on the airwaves today.Whats a good way to describe "true " country music? Wasnt country music always a combination of mny types of music ? ( ethnic, jazz, blues, etc.) I like the young artists of today dont really mind the way the music has changed. bob

Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 30 Aug 2005 9:44 am

I think blues and Southern gospel were a major contributor to the foundation of country music. There is a platitude that says, "I can't describe country music but I know it when I hear it". That is about the way it is. A description of what is country would vary depending on the age of the evaluator, where they live, etc.

I think you have started what will be a very vigorous discussion.

[This message was edited by Leroy Riggs on 30 August 2005 at 10:48 AM.]

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 30 Aug 2005 9:59 am

No pointy guitars. No 80's drum sounds.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Aug 2005 10:24 am

In the '50s, they were afraid rock'n'roll would take over country music. There was a big generational fight in lots of musical families, like the Everly Brothers. But it didn't happen like they feared, and some early rockers like Johnny Cash and Conway Twitty even moved from rock'n'roll to country. The real rock takeover came later, in the '80s and '90s, and now is almost complete. Still, modern rock-country has a distinctly country s**t-kicker flavor, that is recognizably different from mainstream rock. Country music has changed in every decade. Think of the differences between Jimmy Rogers, Hank Williams, George Jones, Waylon and Willie, Garth, Vince Gil, and Brad Paisley.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 30 Aug 2005 11:08 am

I can describe real real country music with two words,DALE WATSON! But won't hear him on the so called country F.M. radio or T.V. stations, because that would cut into the airplay of Big and Rich and Cowboy Troy. Another dead give away between pop country, and the real thing is the heavy distored fuzz tone rock and roll guitar leads[which I like if your playing rock and roll,I've done this myself many times.]But if you play this in a country song it's not country. How often do you hear a clean guitar lead in a new [so called country song?]If a hard core traditional blue grass band replaced the banjo and fiddle with a tenor sax and a B three organ,they would be a blues band not blue grass.If anyone likes this new pop country by all means support it and enjoy it.Just please dont call it country,call it what it is[poorly performed 70's rock.]If a hundred percent of us liked the same thing[how boring that would be,we would have nothing to debate.]

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 30 Aug 2005 1:58 pm

'Real' country music isn't nearly as bad as it sounds ....

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 30 Aug 2005 3:00 pm

...."For the steel guitars no longer cry
And you can't hear fiddles play
With drums and rock 'n' roll guitars
Mixed right up in your face
Why the Hag wouldn't have a chance
On today's radio
Since they committed murder
Down on music row"
If you think that trash on the top 40 country stations is "Real Country Music"..then you don't like "Real Country Music"

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 30 Aug 2005 5:11 pm

George.Right on.This new [Country]music that is being forced on the public has nothing to do with country.As I posted above ,anyone that likes the new music,more power to you support it,promote it,listen to it,and buy it.Just dont be brainwashed into thinking your listening to country music.[It's all P.R.from the big record labels].Even one of the most succesfull groups in the business[Brooks and Dunn]which have put out some great music in the past,seem to be giveing in.In their new song praising country music,one line says I want to hear a steel guitar.If you listen close I think[but not sure]there is a steel buried DEEP in the mix behind the distorted guitar solos.We don't label Miles Davis rock and roll,or the Rolling Stones as jazz nor should this [rehashed 70's rock]be called country.Enjoy it if you like,just call it what it is.On some of these so called country music award shows,someone should have the fortitude to follow in the Silver Fox's footsteps.

David Cobb · Post by **David Cobb** » 30 Aug 2005 5:43 pm

Three chords and the truth. Harlan Howard

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 30 Aug 2005 6:10 pm

Harland was a master of three chords and the truth. Compare his lyrics with some of the crap that's being writen today that sells millions of C.D.s Makes you ask,What the hell is going on?

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 31 Aug 2005 12:28 am

My pet peeve is my self i think.I can't remember when the words in the mix came into our lingo.It used to be,turn the @$%^(&) thing down.You are drowning every one out.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 31 Aug 2005 1:39 am

For me, country is The Carter Family, and western is the Sons of the Pioneers.
I don't know how these two married to create the hybrid 'country and western' heard today on the radio, but there's something lost in the translation.

I think Bob Wills had something to do with it, unwittingly. Only steel guitar can save it from inbreeding.

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 31 Aug 2005 3:08 am

What bothers me today is they have taken the melody out of music, and replaced it with too many words.....hum the melody to todays music and NO body could guess the song.

Hum ANY Merle song....get the point? [This message was edited by Jack Francis on 31 August 2005 at 04:10 AM.]

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 31 Aug 2005 3:57 am

Jack, I know what you mean. Some of the new songs are like that. Not all of them.
Changing is the description of country music today.
Some good, some not so good. Just like in the traditional country.

JMHO

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 31 Aug 2005 9:14 am

To tackle Bob S.'s original question, I agree that, whatever 'real' country music is, it was formed as an amalgamation of many, many styles, as is all music, IMO. It is not reasonable to expect that any style of music will stay static. Frankly, purely static means dead. It is not reasonable to think that the critical issues that face people these days should be the same ones that faced people 40-70 years ago when 'classic' country music was developing. So I also welcome musical development.

With that said - forgetting about the country, or even music, field for a minute - there has been a sea change in what passes for 'entertainment' or 'popular culture' these days, and it is very much for the worse, IMO. I think this is why so many traditionalists revile what's going on right now. I believe I have a broad view of music -I started out in classical, moved to folk and blues, rock and roll, jazz, country, bluegrass, rockabilly, world-music, whatever. But I am very discouraged to see what's happened to popular music culture. It's not that it was ever what I would call "enlightened". Nor do I view all 'traditional' musics as great or even good. But there seems to be a stranglehold on that culture right now, and it's not even clear to me precisely where that choke-hold is coming from. It's easy to just blame the global-corporate "dark forces", but fundamentally, something has changed in people that this could succeed, especially in view of the fact that, ironically, there is more great music in all styles available than ever before, IMO.

As far as belittling or trashing other styles of music, one of the problems is that many hardcore supporters of all styles have been doing this all along. I agree that it's completely non-productive, but I think we should all look in our own backyards first. One can't control what other people do, but it's surely possible for each of us to control ourselves.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 31 Aug 2005 9:39 am

especially in view of the fact that, ironically, there is more great music in all styles available than ever before, IMO.

geeez Dave..where? where is todays replacements for Jim Reeves, Faron Young, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Red Foley, Grandpa Jones, Duke Ellington? man i'm looking...i just ain't found it yet. I mean i know cultures change. But "Good" music hasn't. Good music is good music. if it's 50 years old, or a day old. I may not be the worlds greatest musician. But i have 2 ears. Trash is Trash....

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 31 Aug 2005 11:03 am

OK, perhaps not "all" styles, but, there is tons of good music in a lot of styles out there, IMO. Much of it is not in the mainstream at all. The whole 'alt-country' field, which is not mainstream, has lots of good people in it. I suppose many would bristle at the idea that Dale Watson is alt-country, but that's probably the only format that plays him. Dwight Yoakum seems to almost be relegated to alt-country status by now. Robbie Fulks, BR-549, Wayne Hancock, Emmylou, Steve Earle, and many, many others, keep great music in this general style alive. Perhaps many or most of the currently unsung of these people will never be household names, or even enter mainstream popularity at all. I'm not arguing that there's that much commercially available on a large scale.

Bluegrass is teeming with young talent. They aren't Bill Monroe or the Stanley Brothers, but how could they be - nobody else was either. A style can be invented once. 'New country' has tons of great players - many gripe that it's too blues and rock-influenced, but some of it is still very good, as music. If you're looking for replacements for Red Foley or Grandpa Jones, it ain't that. Why should it be? But younger country singers certainly haven't forgotten about Haggard, George Jones, and the like. The same holds for straightahead jazz, blues, and many other styles. I think it's unreasonable to just write all these people off. There are interesting new styles created all the time. Great music is out there - the question is how to get it recognized and in the mainstream.

Now, if you're expecting that newer 'real' country styles should necessarily be the same as Haggard, George Jones or Hank, I don't think that's gonna happen, nor should it necessarily. Frankly, if someone gets too close, like Harry Connick Jr. does for some with Sinatra, they are dismissed as being too derivative. But I hear great players and singers, often relatively unknown, play in clubs all the time. Many produce locally distributed CDs, and are excellent. Yeah, they're not recognized, and I know there's something of a tendency to write off that which is "not hot", but that doesn't mean they're not there. But if we restrict our search to mainstream radio and recordiings, we're not going to hear a lot of good music. In many ways, the internet is the great equalizer. Every new idea imaginable is out there, but it ain't on TV - it must be searched out.

Duke Ellington? I doubt there will be another Ellington, any more than there will be another Mozart or Beethoven. Frankly, the big band style that he is most well known for mostly went out in the 50s due to economics.This was the heyday of small combos with Miles, Kenny Burrell, Art Pepper, and so on. But in jazz, how about Branford Marsalis, Joe Lovano, Pat Martino, Jimmy Bruno and the like? For younger, there is an entire 'young traditionalist' movement in jazz - yes, it's taking them some time to really develop, but who didn't? Go to Boston or NYC and listen to the young turks. Great music is far from dead. Some of these younger musicians will blow your head off with chops and feel.

Great musicians grab interesting influences from wherever they can and mix it in. This will often displease hardcore traditionalists. OK, I guess that's fair enough. But the traditionalists also have much of the recorded canon of generations of music to listen to. If we would adopt (what I consider) a reasonable copyright policy on older material, we could get all of that available, which would in turn influence current and future generations of players. They can't be influenced by what they're not allowed to hear, and that worries me a lot.

Of course, not all styles will survive. I don't see too many people beating the doors down to keep the Uncle Dave Macon/Grandpa Jones style alive. Perhaps Jim Reeves and Red Foley are a bit laid back for most modern audiences. So are Perry Como, Andy Williams and that style of pop singing, and there are people who also lament that. C'est la vie. But this doesn't mean there isn't lots and lots of good music. Static old ideas tend to die off, others grab new blood and continue on.

Yes, trash is trash - that hasn't changed in recorded history, but there's always been plenty of that to go around. But there's plenty of 'the good stuff' too. IMHO.

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 31 Aug 2005 11:47 am

There was plenty of " corny" country music 35-40 yrs ago too. I wont ever call someones musical efforts, trash. Seems like the line drawn in the sand, is determined by ones age. bob

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 31 Aug 2005 1:01 pm

i don't know..my ears are about as good as they were 30 years ago..lol but on that sour note..i will leave this great discussion with a little ditty...it is so so true...after you click on the link..click on the left hand side where it says download file..it takes a few minutes to download, it will open in your Windows Media Player..Buddy Emmon's Studio Step One Records recorded this..so true..ye'haaa http://freefilehosting.net/?id=rdn2m6Td

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 31 Aug 2005 4:28 pm

Apologies, Myron, it was an old joke I thought almost everyone had heard by now .....

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 1 Sep 2005 2:24 am

One good change is we have the internet now, we didn't back then.
Other good changes are:
More steel builders
More pedal & knee changes
Different styles of playing
Steel guitar is used more than ever in all styles of music.
I would never call anything trash either.

Bill Mayville · Post by **Bill Mayville** » 1 Sep 2005 2:57 am

I agree with all the opinions on the bad taste of country music of today .Like Jack said.No melody.Analyzing this music for quite a while, i have come up with this small statement!The bounce tunes are gone.Very square to the ears of the new guys.Old licks are just that.And their not needed.From an old fart.The later sounds have sailed.One step Records gone.No where to play!It may be time to elivate the playing capabilities of the average player.The great ones don't seem to have a problem.
I listen for that masterful voice everyday.
Haven;t heard it lately.Most singers are so high pitched ,it sounds like their pants are on to tight.
I wish us all well in the future.

Bill Mayville Emmons 05 D-10

Lillie Powles · Post by **Lillie Powles** » 1 Sep 2005 8:21 am

i still like the greatest country song ever written, Don't break my heart...my achy breaky heart...i mean that's a classic right along with such great country songs as:
Whose Bed Have Your Boots Been Under
I Left Something Turned On At Home
Did I Shave My Legs For This
How Do You Like Me Now [my favorite]
She Thinks My Tractor's Sexy
The Shake
Bringing Out The Elvis
now those are our "Classic Country" hits
how about the great stuff on the radio today? the stuff that makes your parents shake:
My Give A Damn's Busted
Drugs or Jesus
and the completely ruined Conway Twitty song titled "Goodbye Time" they kill it!
Skin
Keg In The Closet by Kenny Cheesy
Alcohol [just noise]
Big Time the newest [song] by Big & Rich [don't bother]
i hear the karaoke crowd even think they stink. I mean seriously, if this is what a steel guitar player who studies half their life to learn this very complex instrument is expected to play. well..count me out!
it's time to go and get "Beer For My Horses" guys..and stay out of the "Redneck Yacht Club"..because you won't find any "Drugs Or Jesus" there, and i better be careful because "I break Things"....i'm glad i go to the "Honky Tonk U"....

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 1 Sep 2005 10:08 am

I dont care how much some people defend this obnoxious crap thats being passed off as country music today.It is indefensible!In the past when real country artist performed,the first word that came out of their mouth you knew who it was,they had a definite style.Not today[except for a FEW rare exceptions]They all sound alike.The new crowd today have no class the way they persent themselves to their audience.It's heading down the toilet.All the greats that help build this business such as Ray Price,Jim Reeves,Porter,Little Jimmy,Hank Snow,Roy Acuff,etc etc,can you picture these REAL artist walking on the Opry wearing ragged jeans and a tank top.Another point I would like to make is when was the last time any of you heard an instrumental on the radio.In the golden age of radio,you would hear Chet Atkins,Floyd Cramer,Jerry Byrd,Earl Scruggs,Herb Remington,the list goes on and on.There's not a snowballs chance in hell you will hear anything from the great artist of today[such as Paul Franklin,Bobbe,Brent Mason,the late and great Hal Rugg.NO WAY.