Gas and Gigs

Ian Finlay · From: Kenton, UK

Well, for another perspective:

I'm paying roughly $6.5 per gallon here in London. To drive into the City I would have to pay $12, then more to park. I like big engined cars (I have a Porsche 928 - 5.4L V Cool

, and a couple of old American hobby cars.

So I ride a motorbike - 50mpg, not affected by traffic, cheap to run, and it still does 145mph and 0-60 in not-much-at-all.

I don't drink, don't smoke, so gas is my "fun money". And I don't make any money out of gigs really either.

Ian

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

David..oh how right your are there ..
---------------------------------------------
quote:

But all was foreseeable, including Katrina,
and we shall reap what we sow.
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This is what we do as a Nation..we wait until the bottom falls out then blame and point fingers at everyone ..

We don't save anything for retirement, we don't save anything for our childs education..we have no rent money....then when it comes time to anti up....it's always someone elses fault...

( obviously not every situation is the same , this is a generality here )

I think the front page of every USA Newspaper should read..

"What the Heck are we doing ? "

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 September 2005 at 04:24 AM.]

Gaylon Mathews · From: Jasper, Georgia

....and there have been NO upgrades to refineries for the last twenty years.

And whose fault is that? I may be wrong but that sounds like the oil companies falling down on the job.

P.S. I oil my changer with 3 in 1 oil. Just to help keep it about oil & steels.

------------------
Gaylon's Homepage
www.gaylonmathews.com

Gretchen Wilson
www.gretchenwilson.com

GFI Ultra D-10, Fender Steel King, GHS Strings, SteelSeat.com

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Gaylon, according to what I can find out their efforts to do so have been blocked legislatively at every turn by "environmental concerns"...

EJL

Jim Hinton · From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA

The most irritating part of this situation is the fact that it's been going on since 1973.

I was working in Tucson, Arizona selling Volvo's when it happened. People couldn't buy gas for their big vehicles, and were trading them on smaller cars then.

Why after 30+ years is this still a problem?

I think the alternate fuel innitiatives failed and our government didn't do enough to solve the problem.

I don't know who to blame, but we're all trying to make a living, and some solutions will be found.

I believe there is enough money involved that alternate fuels will be plentiful in the next few years, and gas will be nudged back down in price. As one of my esteemed colleagues said before, "It's all about supply and demand".

Once we find enough ways to fuel our power needs other than using gas that is ...

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Jim, I think you answered your own question..

still the same issue 30 years later...

Like many, I was there at the 70's Gas crisis ..there was no more Gas..
at $.39

there was plenty of Gas

at $.89

There was planty of Gas early this week at $2.50

Now there's not..at least not at $2.50

Lets see what next week brings..at $3.25

The amount of Gas and Fuel is not the issue, never was, never will be...

Getting it without asking the 3 legged Toad to move is ....

Getting it without getting Barabara Streisand and Norman Lear's permission will be the issue... or Arienna Hovington or whatever the heck her name is...

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 September 2005 at 06:15 AM.]

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 September 2005 at 06:16 AM.]

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

I have had to raise my rates for gigs lately, as it has been costing nearly 70 bucks to fill the tank in my truck. Yesterday it cost $56..for half a tank. Since I generally don't have to travel that far for gigs in NYC, I don't think I will be turning gigs down, but I am going to have to ask for more money, and will probably be restricting any free rehearsals to a bare minimum. It was my bright idea to buy an F-250, so I am going to have to live with it.

My heart goes out to any steelers and their families who are suffering in the wake of this terrible disaster.

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

When all this started in the 70's, we accepted the fact that we would have to start driving more efficient cars and looking for alternative energy and much was accomplished.

Solar panels and windmills went up everywhere, the government gave us big tax incentives for investing in alternative energy, the auto mfgs gave us 40 mpg cars in every way, shape and form. We got mini pickups and minivans, efficient diesel engines for larger pickups.

We made a homemade solar panel for our garage and it worked amazingly well for few dollars more than it would have cost for an oil furnace.

Back then, hardly anyone had 4 wheel drive. In fact, I was a logging contractor and discovered that I could get in and out of the woods just fine with a tank full of diesel on the back of my Chevy Luv deisel mini pickup that got over 40mpg!

Then all of a sudden the crisis was over--or so it seemed. The govt took the energy tax incentives away, the auto mfgs started building bigger energy guzzling cars. Next thing you know we were convinced that we couldn't deliver "meals on wheels" around town without four wheel drive, much less ever go into the woods without it. Today most people actually think that a 4x4 is an absolute necessity.

In the late 70's I don't think any of us ever thought that we would see the SUVs like we see today.

Then in the mid 90's the feds gave the speed limit back to the states and they all raised it at least 10MPH--some removed it altogether.

We saved so much energy that many of my friends lost their jobs in the petroleum business as working wells were capped all over the country. So, did the govt bail them out by telling the car companies to build bigger cars, and by eliminating tax incentives and lifting speed limit restrictions???

I honestly don't know, but it has to make one stop and wonder just what does go on.

Whatever, we are now paying the price for our irresponsibility. The day of putting a band-aid on our problems is over. If we don't learn a lesson about conservation and self-discipline now, the good times will be over for good. Maybe they already are.

Yes, it is going to affect our plans. We are not going to be able to do the road shows we had planned. Given the nature of what we do, a lot of people will be dissapointed besides us. Even the Freightliner Sprinter we were going to use, which gets 23 MPG, will be too costly to operate now.

But hey, 600,000,000 children in Asia alone are on the verge of starving to death. Millions of kids in places like Ukraine and Belarus sleep in sewers in the winter to keep warm and then come out and prostitute themselves so that they can break even on survival--all while we sit in our big comfortable homes and max out our credit cards on stuff we don't need. So, I guess it's time we just suck it up and accept the cold, inevitable reality that, as someone else said, the only one to blame is the ugly mug we see in the mirror every morning.

One positive note to consider though--when things get really bad, live music usually flourishes because going out to a dance is still a much cheaper form of entertainment than going to the shore or the mountains for the weekend. The resorts will suffer, but local music should actually see a boon as people stay closer to home. Live music was huge during the depression, as it was during WWII when gas was rationed.

[This message was edited by Webb Kline on 01 September 2005 at 06:58 AM.]

Allen Peterson · From: Katy, Texas

Bob Knight, Apology fully accepted, and I can sympathize with you. I come from a long line of English coal miners, most of whom lost their lives in mine explosions and such. One branch of my family actually owned and operated coal mines in northwestern Derbyshire, England. They were only getting 4 pence per wagonload of coal in the late 1800s. Some things never change I guess. I suppose the public demanded cheap coal in those days just like the public expects cheap oil these days. Anyway, my comments were not directed to you as much as they were meant for the general public in this country that has the idea that the oil companies are out to get them. And this is simply not the case.

Eric West, thanks for your comments. I don't think people really understand how capitally intensive the oil business is. Most of them only hear about the huge profits, but they fail to hear about the huge amounts of money it takes to stay in business. They also don't understand the business risks involved. I was in a meeting yesterday where we were trying to figure out how to cut our drilling costs down. Drilling costs for a 17,000' well offshore are approaching $20,000,000.

Bobby Boggs, I agree that the reports of huge profits do look bad and I think sometimes the oil companies should also report their huge operation costs as well as losses. They do this in their annual reports but it never makes the 5:00 news for the public to see.

James Morehead, you are right on. It is time for this country to get creative and I think we can. There is nothing in the world like US ingenuity.

Bob Hoffnar, who are these guys that are running the country and cashing in on the oil crisis? I guess I missed hearing about them.

Ricky, sorry to hear you are going belly-up. Anything I can do to help? ha...

John Bechtel, Amen!

Leslie Ehrlich, I too, ride a bike. I have a TREK 7500 hybrid. Pretty hard to load my equipment on it though. You are absolutely right about oil being a finite source. The drilling prospects I have been generating are getting smaller each year.

Charlie McDonald, Bob Knight was implying that the oil companies are lying to the public. I took offence to this because oil is my livelihood and was only defending my position. I wanted him to understand that oil companies are made-up of people like me that work for a living, not a bunch of cigar-smoking, wheeler dealers bent on shafting little old ladies out of their savings. I was afraid that his comments would degenerate into an oil company bashing and I didn't want that to happen.

Tony Prior, thanks for your assessment. It was very well put!

Ian Finlay, I know what you are going through. I rented a Ford Escort last time I was in England. I was amazed at the power this little car had. I caught myself going over 80 mph on the M1. Glad no one else caught me!

David L. Donald, thanks for your comments. As usual, they are right on!

Gaylon Mathews, I think Eric West pretty well summed it up. There is a gentleman who has been trying for the last 10 years to build a refinery in Phoenix. He has met with severe opposition from environmental groups who don't want a refinery in their neighborhood. As far as upgrades are concerned, these take capital and if the price of the product is down, then these modifacations cannot be done. By the time the price rises there is a lag time because it takes years to make the changes.

Jim Hinton, you're right. No one is yet willing to pay for alternatives because they are too expensive. Once gasoline reaches that threshold, things will swing back to the alternative fuels side. You have realize that people are willing to pay more of a gallon equivalent of bottled water than they will pay for a gallon of gas. Go figure.

Gerald Menke, thanks for your concerns, and I share the same sentiments. I have three cars in my driveway with only two drivers living in the house. Something is going to have to give.

Hope I haven't left anyone out. I am just glad it doesn't take much oil to lubricate my steel. That's when I will start screaming about those nasty oil companies and I will probably start looking for an alternative to the oil I bought from Carter to do the job.

Allen Peterson

Allen Peterson · From: Katy, Texas

Webb Kline, thanks for your thoughts and I couldn't agree more. Now lest I be accused of hyjacking this thread, I think I will just shut-up and get back to work finding more oil and gas.

Allen Peterson

Per Kammersgaard · From: Sonderborg, Denmark

So you think you are paying too much for gas in the US - over here the prices today are up to 11.00 dkr pr. liter - that is around 7 $ a gallon. These are the prices that made us drive smaller, more economic cars.
PK

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

My GFI never has no dependence on fossil fuel for maintenence, it requires no lubrication.

Energy solutions are complicated. Lack of new refineries is part of the current problem, but a shortsided view at best. It is the tremendous profits of the oil industry that perpetuates the problem, Who can blame them?

Let's build more refineries, then we can run out of oil that much quicker!

Let's ignore environmentalists and keep drilling for that extra couple months of oil. There's money to be made! Isn't it environmentalists who wanted those levees upgraded? The same group complaining about Ozone layers,building in flood plains and clear cut harvesting of trees,etc. etc. What do they know?

No one likes facing the truth, which as I see it is this: we have made this problem ourselves, because our god is money. Whatever makes it, we worship. whoever says anything against the almighty(dollar) is automatically branded as wacko, wild eyed environmentalist,or whatever.

Solar power is the only real solution to energy in this world, but since the sun is free, it'll only happen when we really get desperate. The oil industry requires discovery,developement,refinement,storage, distribution,and auto driving consumers(us).

Whoever figures out how to harness solar power will be next century's Bill Gates.

Sorry for the long post,the gulf coast is a terrible tragedy. Jim Peters

[This message was edited by Jim Peters on 01 September 2005 at 09:01 AM.]

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Allen P:

"Bobby Boggs, I agree that the reports of huge PROFITS do look bad and I think sometimes the oil companies should also report their huge operation costs as well as losses."

Allen, not to start a dissing contest, but did I miss something in Accounting 101. I thought Profits = Accounts Receivable minus Accounts Payable. Don't operation costs and losses fall in the latter category?

I'm outta' here.
Phred

------------------
"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

What about the bio-diesel alternative?

Allen Peterson · From: Katy, Texas

Phred, yes your accounting principles are intact. A - B = C

I guess my point is that share holder value and huge profits are advertised on the news but the operating costs and losses are not. These are published on the 10K or annual reports of most oil companies, but are not discussed in the news. So nobody really understands the risks oil companies take in finding oil. The company I work for just announced this morning that we lost eight production platforms to Katrina. Some of the loss is covered by insurance but only $150,000,000 of business interuption is covered. We are losing 7,158 barrels of oil per day and 12.1 million cubic feet of gas per day. I bet you won't see these figures on ABC new this evening, but you will see the price of gasoline discussed ad nauseum. Do the math. 7158 BO/day x about $70/BO = about $500,000 per day. $150,000,000 divided by $500,000 per day = 30 days. It will take us about a year to rebuild the platforms.

Allen Peterson

[This message was edited by Allen Peterson on 01 September 2005 at 11:08 AM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Jim are you thinking we are out of the almighty OIL commodity here in the USA ?

We may be out of approved places to drill but I somehow think the ANWAR Reserve has enough of the Black Gold to keep us all in Oil Heat for the next hundred years..or more...and that only from a small dot in relationship to the whole place...

But as usual, we need to get permission from the Caribou .

Alternative fuels are a plus..but we as a Nation are fooling ourselves if we think that technology will be available anytime within the next few decades....

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Tony,any where from 6mths to 30 yrs supply from Anwar is what I have read. JP

[This message was edited by Jim Peters on 01 September 2005 at 09:59 AM.]

Jim Hinton · From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Tony ... I don't know what I'm talking about, but the point I was attempting to make is this: If the oil producers have competition from other sources, their sales will slow down.

If supply exceeds demand (from competition) it's value will diminish, and prices will reflect same (go down).

I learned this in Economics 101. Jeez, that was 35 years ago, and I hope it's still the same!

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

The average price of regular gas is now $1.25 a liter in my area.

At today's exchange rate that is $1.05 US dollars.

There's ~4 liters to the gallon, so we're paying the equiv. of $4.20 US a gallon.

The price went up 30 cents a liter last night, an increase of about a $1 a gallon over night.

Gaylon's comments about refineries also apply here. We have a large refinery in Oakville, Ontario that is being closed, for environmental reasons. No new ones are being built.

I also use 3-In-One Oil on my Steel Changer.

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 01 September 2005 at 10:45 AM.]

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Complicated issues that run deep into economics, politics, and any applied world view. It's obviously true that the writing's been on the wall for many years.

So if we tap a reserve that has either 6 months or 30 years of capacity, do we then just wait 6 months (or 30 years) until that runs out to change direction?

Seems pretty plain that alternative paths should have been persued long ago.

I drive, and use gas, but I wouldn't want a refinery next to my neighborhood. Would you?
The environmental concerns are very real if you live in the backyard of a refinery. I know it has to be done somewhere- if we insist on using gasoline- but I just can't blame those who don't want to live in the middle of the process.

Nuclear power would seem a nice option for fuel requirements other than driving- but anything that creates unbelieveably hazardous waste products, that must be stored for thousands of years, is obviously suspect, isn't it? They're having a terrible time dealing with the Nuclear waste we already have- I don't see how leaving it for our grandchildren to deal with is very farsighted.

No, I don't have the answers- but I'm not a research scientist. We obviously can't just go back to horse and buggy, or get our steels to the gig on the bicycle rack... I wonder just how much progress we'd make in energy research if just a fraction of the 5 billion a month we're spending in Iraq had been diverted to research. Just a fraction.

The latest round of scientific debate seems to have concluded that indeed Global Warming is very real, that yes, the largest contribution is use of fossil fuels, and that Global Warming is the most likely root cause for the vicious early hurricane cycle, that spawned Katrina, and will become worse with passing years. So taking the line of thought that we should just increase production, use more gas, and kick the "naysayers" to the curb seems to be just asking for more of the same.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Yes, even steel guitars will cost more very soon!

Everybody's looking at the small picture right now. They only wring their hands about gas, and the terrible devastation in Louisianna and Mississippi. Seriously friends...there's a lot more to worry about! Everything's tied together, so the price of everything is going up, and, sad to say, it will probably stay up! What should you be worrying about? Worry about the largest recession that this country's ever seen. (It's staring us right in the face.) Worry about terrorists. (About half the world now hates our guts.) Worry about people who wring their hands about big natural disasters. (We haven't really had one...yet.)

As Al Jolson once said...

"You ain't seen nothin' yet!"

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 01 September 2005 at 01:56 PM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Jim and Jim, you are both correct..
The Anwar, the whole palce..is capable of a kazillion barrals is what I understand..
And yes.. competition at similar prices is what we need..that is what will FIX the whole mess..
but we are many deades away from that I am afraid..

and I use various brands of oil around the place here..3 in 1 being one of thm for sure..

I just paid $3.29..all the $2.99 gas is gone,theres still $3.29 gas available and lots at $3.49...

oh well

t

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

This isn't about music, so I'm closing it.

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