Number System Question

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Jul 2005 3:12 pm

Thanks, Roy. We'll be thinking of you tomorrow evening at the Club Meeting/Jam.

I attended a Jeff Newman seminar that included some basic info on the number system, such as a 5511 intro. Jeff mentioned he worked for a while in a studio where they would come up with melodies for songs just from numbers. e.g. someone would write down some numbers and they would take it from there, just playing around the chords and would come up with melodies. He said they used a lot of those for the places that advertise, "send us your words and we'll put them to music".

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Jul 2005 3:28 pm

Interesting thread.

I generally write my charts using letters, because when a song changes keys for the "b" section (example: SA Rose, Deep Water, others), numbers get confusing. Generally you can tell key changes by which chords become dominants.

Ken Lang: when I lived in CA, we used the expression "two down" onstage, but it meant "two fingers down," or "two flats" referring to key signatures, meaning the key of Bb. "One down" meant the key of F, "three down" meant Eb, etc.

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Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 13 Jul 2005 5:29 am

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Jul 2005 7:56 am

I learned the number system from classical piano teachers and theory books in the '50s. So I don't think either jazz musicians or Nashville can claim the credit. But it seems like it is a mixed system. The chords are designated by Roman numerals (I, IV, V), but individual notes added to those chords are designated by arabic numerals (V7). Minor chords can be designated by lower case Roman numerals (vi, ii) or by adding a lower case "m." The II major is as common as the IIm, and so many people would never assume II meant IIm.

The sharp or flat sign appears after the chord name (VIIb), but appears before an individual note added to a chord (VIIb b5). A 7 alone is always considered a dominant or minor 7th. Jazz number systems and the Nashville system seem to have borrowed from the classical theory system, but altered and added things of their own. The most important thing is for you to use the system that is understood by the group you are playing with.

The b7 note in the key of C is usually referred to instead of #6, because flat 3rds, 5ths and 7ths are so common. They are not called sharp 2nds, 4ths and 6ths. I would call the chord with that root the VIIb for the same reason, even in a sharp key. But I think the individual note on the staff would be a sharp if it was a black key in a sharp key signature.

Just my dos centavos.

C# and B natural.

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 13 July 2005 at 09:17 AM.]</p></FONT>

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 13 Jul 2005 8:21 am

David, I completely forgot about the lower case roman numerals. You are right as usual though.

Still, I think the "m" notation makes better sense than the lower case system.

As long as all the players are on the same page, all is well. I speak probably with more of a Philly accent with perhaps a trace of PA Dutch, not mid-western, New York, Boston, Southern, etc. It's soda here, not pop, it's a sub, not a hoagie, a bag, not a sack.

I guess charting is similar.

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 13 Jul 2005 8:52 pm

I vote for 7b. Years ago I was getting a little help from a very high profile steel player in Nashville charting a song and he used 7b. Jody

Bob Martin · Post by **Bob Martin** » 16 Jul 2005 2:52 am

"Another chord progression is the one part in Crazy, if played in the Key of C, that goes C, C#, Dm, G7. Is the C# a 1# or b2?"

Hi Jack, if it was played in Nashville or at least if it was me this is the rule of thumb.

If the chord is lower than the 1 chord I call it a flat and if it is up from the one I call it a sharp.

So you probably would not see many 6#'s on one of my charts.

Does that make any sense it doesa to me but then again I'm heavily medicated LOL?????

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 16 Jul 2005 4:36 am

Bob,

Thanks. However, if it's "lower than the 1 chord"??? If it's lower than the 1 chord doesn't make sense, at least this early in the morning. I see what you are saying in relation to the frets - if it's in C and C is on the 8th fret then Bb being on the 6th fret would be "lower". But in the number system it would be "higher" - (either 6# or 7B). Does that make any sense either?