Fiddle Question - Key of F

Post by **Joey Ace** » 14 Jun 2005 10:34 am

I'm not a Fiddler, but am told by one that the key of F is difficult on that instrument.

In particular the Dixie Chick's "Tonight the Heartaches On Me".

Does anone keep an extra Fiddle on stage tuned a half step high for this key? Any other advice? Thanks.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 14 Jun 2005 11:16 am

If you tuned a half step high, you would have to play in E to sound like F, which would be harder than just playing in F.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 14 Jun 2005 12:04 pm

The Cajuns often tune DOWN a whole step, so you could play out of G position, pretty easy (but D is the easiest, probably)...

There are some cool fiddle tunes in concert F, though...
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[This message was edited by John McGann on 14 June 2005 at 01:05 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 14 Jun 2005 12:22 pm

Some years ago a band I was with did that song and I played fiddle on it and yes they did it in F, also there's a Shania Twain song in some odd key with fiddle, forget now but it's in C#, B or Bb...one of them...had to do it on fiddle too.

If you know your scales and positions without using open strings, it's not that bad.

Of course fiddle is easier when you can use the open strings.

I'm certainly not a great fiddle player but I can play in those keys, and can't imagine any fiddler saying it's harder to play in E than F.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 14 June 2005 at 01:29 PM.]

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 14 Jun 2005 12:34 pm

I'm not a fiddler either, but I've played with one quite a bit. Yes, keys like F and Bb seem to be less kind to players, especially those with bluegrass backgrounds.

Recorded a demo of a swing tune in Bb. After the fiddler struggled with the tune for about 5 minutes, a made him tune up 1/2 step so he could play in A. Easy. Having a second instrament around for that kind of situation makes sense. Guitar players do it...

Edit: Thinking about that DC tune, it sure sounds like the fiddler tuned up a 1/2 step. It has that "open string" sound.[This message was edited by Ben Slaughter on 14 June 2005 at 01:49 PM.]

Mel Mandville · Post by **Mel Mandville** » 14 Jun 2005 12:54 pm

I'm auditioning for a group this week on fiddle.
Honk if you honkytonk
She thinks my tractors sexy B flat
born to fly
Neon Moon, Nothing to loose.... etc

Several are in B flat or F kind or weird at first, but in some ways I think they are as easy as the open string keys. They are used in bluegrass quite a bit. Born to fly in A flat sucks. They had to retune for that and or capo the dobros etc. Protools wizard pitch shifting?
I tuned up a half step to play with the recording. And we will be changing the key to G. I don't know maybe some hot shot studio cat played it in A flat

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 14 Jun 2005 1:26 pm

F and Bb on fiddle ain't bad compared to some other keys.

Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden D-10 8/8, Fessenden SD-12 5/5 (Ext E9), Magnatone S-8, N400's, BOSS RV-3

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 14 Jun 2005 1:37 pm

In your expert opinion, what are the worst keys for fiddle, Drew?

Post by **Joey Ace** » 14 Jun 2005 2:05 pm

Thanks guys, keep em coming.
I'll be passing this along to him.

Yes, the open strings are missing when in F.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 14 Jun 2005 2:18 pm

Yes, the open strings are missing when in F

I'm not sure what is meant by the above statement. The notes G, D, A, and E are all contained in the key of F.

I play some mandolin... used to play a lot... and I never had a problem with F. The key of Bb doesn't contain an E note, of course.

The most difficult keys I imagine would be the ones that required every scale tone to be fretted with the extensive use of the little finger and allows no rest for fingering.

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Post by **Joey Ace** » 14 Jun 2005 2:31 pm

I think I meant the C note ( fifth of the tonic) was hard to get. I do see your point.

Again, I'm not the fiddler, just looking to pass on some expert advice.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 14 Jun 2005 2:49 pm

With all due respect to you Herb, mandolin and fiddle are not the same instrument despite being tuned the same.

Not counting classicly-trained violinists who can chew up and spit out just about anything in any key, I've never ever seen a fiddle player play Orange Blossom Special in anything but E, Faded Love in D & A, Cotton Eye Joe in A, etc. etc. and there is a REASON for that, wouldn't you think?

Try Orange Blossom or Cotton Eye Joe in F, Bb, C#, Ab or whatever, if you need a demonstration. Sure it can be done, but it's not the same.

Like I said, I'm not a great fiddle player, rarely take it out of the case anymore but I did play it 6 nights a week in Las Vegas and on the road, and I don't mean the above-mentioned 3 songs per night, I mean played fiddle and ONLY fiddle from 9 p.m. to 2 a.m. 6 nights a week, besides many other bands where I did play it along with my steel and regular guitar. I sure as heck learned my positions and scales that way. I still do OBS in E. If some other song is in C#, I'll do it there, but on fiddle, E,A,D & G are still the common and easier keys.

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 15 Jun 2005 5:12 am

F is a little less convenient than the core fiddle keys D, G, A, and C, having no open string tonic or dominant (C just has the dominant inconveniently on low open G). F and Bb are not real popular for breakdowns, but there are lots of tunes in F, and Bb, including Beaumont Rag in F, and Done Gone in Bb. F and Bb are very popular for waltzes because of the open string 3ds and other double stops that can be played in first position. I've heard people say "That's a nice little Bb waltz."

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 15 Jun 2005 9:13 am

"Not counting classicly-trained violinists who can chew up and spit out just about anything in any key, I've never ever seen a fiddle player play Orange Blossom Special in anything but E, Faded Love in D & A, Cotton Eye Joe in A, etc. etc. and there is a REASON for that, wouldn't you think?"

Obviously, instrumentals are going to be written in the key they best "lay out" in. In songs, however, you have to be able to play in the key the SINGER wants. As Herb told me many, many years ago, "You control the instrument; it doesn't control you." I agree with Herb that the toughest keys are those with no open strings, where you have to finger every note. BTW, there is a famous Bluegrass instrumental by Frank Wakefield, "New Camptown Races," that fits Bb perfectly. I first learned it in C, but Herb showed me how to play it in Bb, like Frank played it, and it's actually easier.

BTW, Herb was a FANTASTIC Bluegrass mandolin player before switching to steel guitar.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jun 2005 10:31 am

I used to play with cowboy singer Sal sage. Sal played about half of his songs it Eb. Often we had fiddler Gus Garelick. I asked Gus once if the key of Eb gave him any grief. He said that he enjoyed the challenge.

I've never heard Gus play a sour note. Maybe his stint with Sal Sage was the secret to his incredible fiddle chops.

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Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 15 Jun 2005 10:36 am

Actually, OBS is played in the key of A. It begins on the 5 chord, E.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 15 Jun 2005 11:24 am

Actually, OBS is played in the key of A. It begins on the 5 chord, E.

Technically true, but beside the point.

Obviously, instrumentals are going to be written in the key they best "lay out" in.

That's my point.

In songs, however, you have to be able to play in the key the SINGER wants.

No kidding!!! Thanks but I learned that about 35 years ago when I was playing a duo with a keyboard player who sight-read anything and everything in his ton of fakebooks. We did more jazz and pop standards in Ab, Eb, Bb than you could shake a stick at.

When people ask me what key I do something in I tell them "whatever key you sing it in".

BTW, there is a famous Bluegrass instrumental by Frank Wakefield, "New Camptown Races," that fits Bb perfectly

You just said it and made MY point: it "fits Bb perfectly". I wonder if it would be in Bb if it didn't? Yes, some songs fit in Bb or Ab or wherever, and you have to play a song where the singer sings it. Duh.

BTW, Herb was a FANTASTIC Bluegrass mandolin player

I bet he was, but it has nothing to do with the discussion.

Trying to get back to Joey's question which was pretty general and basically amounts to "is F a difficult key for fiddle?" ... I would guess that by now the answer has to be, "it can be more difficult or easier depending on the song and the ability of the fiddle player". Fair enough?[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 15 June 2005 at 04:57 PM.]

Mel Mandville · Post by **Mel Mandville** » 15 Jun 2005 12:52 pm

I'm going to jump back in with 2 cents. I'm not trying to say I'm an great fiddler and know everything. One reason I like the open string
keys... you have the open strings to drone against your melody so to speak. It sounds nice and full and you can use open strings to check your intonation. thats why most old time music is in those keys, Irish tunes too. The other keys i believe are called closed position keys. You have to slide up and bar across 2 strings with your first finger then play all the relative notes and double stops with your other fingers. F is a closed position.. They are a lot harder to get in tune for sure.

Hey, Leon, I see your name on Alternitive strings forum... I'm Soggydog

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 15 Jun 2005 1:04 pm

I once played a mandolin and I was told that because it was tuned like a fiddle that I should be able to play a fiddle. They lied, because the nuance was much greater than I was led to believe, and I am still awed by a fiddle player who can play anything in any key.

....and I am also still impressed by the horn players who play competently in E or any other non-flat key....including harmony parts to any breakdown!

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Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 15 Jun 2005 2:12 pm

A fiddle player should be able to handle the key of F if he tunes ET. OBS is the only exception.

Terry
(Engineering Manager/mandolin player - can't play a fiddle in any key)

[This message was edited by Terry Edwards on 15 June 2005 at 03:14 PM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 15 Jun 2005 3:00 pm

My goodness, Jim. Don't take things so personally. I sincerely thank you for your contribution, and would welcome more.

I'm also a competant Mandolin player, and a failed Fiddler. I tried for two years long ago, and put it away for good. They are VERY different instruments. I thought I could make the transition, WRONG!

I have a great amount of respect for good Fiddlers.

So to get specific, when playing "Tonight The Heartaches On Me" should a detuned fiddle be used. It sounds like it is on the track, or possibly a Pro-Tools key change.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 15 Jun 2005 3:45 pm

I apologize for my rude post.

By the way, thank you Mel for your post. Nice to see one from someone else who actually plays fiddle. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 15 June 2005 at 05:19 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jun 2005 4:02 pm

A fiddle player should be able to handle the key of F if he tunes ET.

I can't hear the difference between an ET-tuned fiddle and a JI-tuned fiddle. The instrument is tuned in 5ths. The difference would be something like 2 cents. I think that the angle of the bow affects pitch more than that!

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 15 Jun 2005 6:40 pm

Just a failed attemp at humor, b0b!

Please, let's not let this turn into a fiddle JI vs. ET thread!!

Yikes!!

Terry

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 15 Jun 2005 6:56 pm

Terry, you got me too with that one. I was thinking "HUHHH???" I didn't even want to try to address that!