Too many E13th's!!!

Tim Taylor · Post by **Tim Taylor** » 11 Dec 2003 9:00 pm

Well it's time to torture myself (and bandmates) with a new tuning, now that my C6 is (barely) bearable, and I’ve acquired a D8. I’m thinking E13 is the next step, but there are many varieties to choose from. I’ve toyed with the "Leon’ version, and it seems good for big chords, (grabbing handfuls of miscellaneous strings), intros and endings, and assorted funny stuff. I would save the C6 for melodies and "straight" stuff. But I don’t want to invest a lot of time (and putzing with string gauges, and $$$) on the "wrong" tuning. What are the advantages (and disadvantages) of some of these listed below? The "Don Helms" version seems too similar to C6 (particularly if you raise the low 6th, A, to the seventh -- A#, on your C6 tuning). That might be cool if you had three necks, but where do I get the most bang for my buck?. I’m mostly doing honky-tonk and older country (some swing), but I am learning some Hawaiian as well, mostly on six string. (Thanks to all at Joliet and Winchester – a good bunch). Finally, finding string sets is tricky; for example, Herb Remington has a E13 set (Jagwire), but doesn’t list notes (tuning). Thanks all, and Happy Holidays. Tim Taylor.
<pre>
"Leon"
E
C#
B
G#
F#
D
G#
E
</pre>

<pre>
"Jules Ah See / Barney Isaacs"
E
C#
G#
F#
D
B
G#
E
</pre>

<pre>
"Don Helms, Little Roy Wiggens"
G#
E
C#
B
G#
E
D
B (or E)
</pre>
Apparently, Speedy West lowered the high B to A#, and used a pedel to raise it back. Ricky Davis raises the low E to F#.

<pre>
"Herb Remington"
E
C#
B
G#
E
D
B
G#
[/tab}

[tab]
"Pick any eight of these"
F#
G#
E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
D
C
</pre>

P.S. If I attached players to the wrong tunings, or misquoted anyone, I meant no offense.

<h6>Edited by Brad to fix word wrapping.</h6>[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 12 December 2003 at 09:16 AM.]

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 11 Dec 2003 9:18 pm

The Don Helms/Roy Wiggins E13 is good, but is pretty much just C6 two steps higher. It is more of a melody/straight ahead tuning. In fact, Don and Roy refer to it as E6, because they rarely use the 7th note.

The Leon tuning is good as a secondary tuning. It sounds more "western swingy" than the Don Helms tuning, because it has the 9th in it.

The Barney Isaacs E13 is good, too. It is very similar to the Herb Remington tuning, too.It's advantage over the Leon tuning is that it has a root note in the center of the tuning. It's disadvantage is that it lacks the 5th which Leons tuning has on the 3rd string. You can do alot on this tuning, but it takes more moving around.

Others to play the Leon tuning where Noel Boggs, Bobby Koefer, Johnny Sibert(Carl Smith's steel man) and Joe Vincent(Faron Young's steel man).

So basically, Don Helms' tuning is good, put if you play C6 it kind of defeats the point of a heavy double neck guitar, Isaacs tuning is good, but you have to "search" for stuff a little bit more, And Leons is what I recommend.

But try all three, and see what you like best.

Chris

Tim Taylor · Post by **Tim Taylor** » 11 Dec 2003 10:01 pm

Chris: Both Leon and Barney have the same notes -- the B note appears higher on the scale in Leon's (at the third string) than in Barney's. Do you see an advantage of one or the other? If I had two guitars side by side I could figure it out, but my music theory is not advanced enough to "hear" it and see the potential in my (shrinking) mind. Thanks for your reply. Some tunings just seem to make more sense to me off the bat -- there's no sense in making this harder than it already is -- you have to love a challenge to learn this thing. I would love to be able to sit down to twenty different guitars in different tunings. Tim.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Dec 2003 2:35 pm

I'll post my own E13, just to add to the confusion!

It's designed for high lead playing. <pre> F#
G#
E
C#
B
G#
E
D </pre>

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Dec 2003 3:35 pm

The tunings really aren't so different, that it would require a ton of string changing to test variations.

You really don't need to change ALL the strings every time. In some case 2-3 strings might be a bit slack or tight, but not so bad that you can't get the feel enough to know if you want to change gauges.

Most of the strings will be the same.
I like Dons, but see the redundancy with C6.
But I really like it on a s-10 lapsteel.

Try getting a Herb Remington string set and retune a bit to try some others.
A good place to start.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 12 December 2003 at 03:37 PM.]

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 13 Dec 2003 1:19 am

Tim,
The difference isn't in the notes, but in their order.

Leons tuning has the very useful:
1
6
5
3
shape on the high 4 strings.

Barneys tuning has it's own advantages, but loosing the 5 note on the 3rd string makes things alot more challenging, IMHO. Some people play Leon's tuning with the 7th string to B instead of G#. That is really all Barneys tuning has that Leon's tuning doesn't.

I would rather have Leon's tuning(for it's high B string) and then decide if I would rather have B or G# on the bottom. It makes alot of sense when you strum it. If you play C6 with a high E string, those string gauges should accomidate the 1/2 step to full step changes needed to try most of these tunings out. Give it a shot, and (hopefully not)break some strings!

Chris[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 13 December 2003 at 01:27 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 13 Dec 2003 6:55 am

I had an interesting talk about this with Bobby Black this fall, and his E13 is the same as Leon's, but with s.7 as a B note and s.8 as G#.

So it looks like:
E
C#
B
G#
F#
D
B
G#

While having a low E gives a full chordal sound, the closer intervals in Bobby's tuning allow for more harmonized scale work in the lower registers. I'm currently using Bobby's tuning on some of my non-pedal guitars.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 14 Dec 2003 2:09 am

For my E9/13, since I have three necks; I just threw it to the wind and settled for: E-D-F#-G#-B-C#-E-G# and the more I play on it, the better I like it. I find new possibilities every day! It's not the tuning I would use if I only had a single neck to play on, but; it provides good variety when you have two other tunings to fall back on. In my case, A7/C6 and C-Diatonic.

“BJ”

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“Big John” Bechtel
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 14 Dec 2003 2:38 pm

The reason I like the low E string, is because I play "Boot Heel Drag", and I incorporate that basic "trombone" lick into alot of my E13 playing.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 15 Dec 2003 2:09 pm

I play this one and find it compliments the C6th.
(From the First String)
E
C#
B
G#
E
D
B
E

Baz www.waikiki-islanders.com

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Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Tim Taylor · Post by **Tim Taylor** » 18 Dec 2003 11:25 pm

Thanks for all of your replys. David Donald: you are right. It seems best to just turn the gears and go. Boy can those strings stretch!!! John Bechtal: there is truth in sticking to one tuning, and learning the ropes. One can apply that knowledge to other variations later. That's why I'm sticking to the Leon version for now. Thanks everybody, and Happy Holidays. Tim Taylor.[This message was edited by Tim Taylor on 18 December 2003 at 11:26 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 19 Dec 2003 11:34 am

Tim, I use C6 and E6 on short scales because Don don't sound right on C6. I noted that short scale has a primo middle of the neck sound and this is why I have these 2 tunings together as a double neck. Cindy Cashdollar used C6, Don Helms E6 and Leons E13 tunings with Asleep at the wheel. Another plus is that having C6 and E6 together is like learning one tuning, but with a much wider usable range than either one has by itself. If your kinda new at steel, this is a great way to go with a band, playing the kind of music your into.[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 19 December 2003 at 11:36 AM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 19 Dec 2003 11:41 pm

I have my E9/13 on the 3rd. neck, and I tried putting my C6/A7 on the Middle Neck, but; my Custom didn't like it that way, and wouldn't let me get comfortable behind it, leaving the C-Diatonic for the 1st. neck. So, I was forced to put it back in it's original sequence. C6/A7–C-Diatonic–E9/13. Now my Custom is happy again!

An instrument has a mind of it's own, if you can figure it out! “BJ”

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“Big John” Bechtel
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 20 Dec 2003 11:27 am

Herb, has listed the tuning I used on my old D8 Vega back in 1939.

<pre>
top neck........Bottom neck E6
E................E
C# or D.........C#
B................B
G#...............G#
F#...............E
D................C#
B................B....or A
G#...............G#....or E
</pre>
(Top Neck)
Look the bottom 4 strings has a nice E9 without the root. I always wished I had a E bottom for 9 stings.

For an good E7 with the high D, just tune the 2nd String C# to D . Dont change anything else . That is a very versatile tuning. It gives a 3 note Diminished, E7th.
E9th,Bmin6th. So with a twist of the wrist you can go to both E13 and E7, witn D dim in it.
Bottom neck is straight E6 or Amaj7-9 on botom 6 strings. (like on C6)
This way the notes are all the same practically. The bar positions are the same E tonic.You can easily change tunings by changing one note right between songs if you wish on the top neck. you can also change the bottom neck E6 to A6 by just tuning your 3rd string B to A and your 4th string G# to F# Then use your OR option......Merry Christmas....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 20 December 2003 at 11:31 AM.]