(By the way, I used to think the only thing they did in Smithfield was make BBQ and Brunswick stew!
)I've Found MY Guitar
Moderators: Dave Mudgett, Janice Brooks
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Rick McDuffie
- Posts: 1439
- Joined: 2 Dec 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Benson, North Carolina, USA
They're Japanese-made, Tom, except for two custom shop models that retail at $10k each... a White Falcon and a 6120. I haven't played the US versions, but I can't imagine that they're any nicer than the Japanese stuff. The whole line is exquisite.
There is also a Korea-made portion of the line- I think it's called the Electro-Matic series- that constitute the low end. Still nice stuff, though.
There is also a Korea-made portion of the line- I think it's called the Electro-Matic series- that constitute the low end. Still nice stuff, though.
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Bill Hatcher
- Posts: 7252
- Joined: 6 Nov 1998 1:01 am
- Location: Atlanta Ga. USA
I will probably wrinkle some feathers here on this Gretsch subject but my opinions come from a lot of experience restoring these and having owned a couple.
The Gretsch instruments vary wildly in quality and playability. Yes Mr. Chet Atkins did play them but you have to take under consideration who this man was and how he could virtually make ANY guitar sound wonderful with his style of playing and his unique touch, coupled with his expertise in recording techniques and the electronics of his day. I quess what I am saying is that Atkins is more responsible for the sounds on his recordings than is the Gretsch guitar he is playing. Take under consideration that virtually ALL of his recordings from 1954 on were made using an amplifier of which only 50 were made also contributed to his sound. The other amp he used was the handmade Ray Butts amp with the tape delay built in. These amps contributed to his sound as much as the guitar.
He had lots of gripes with the Gretsch people as to quality control and the sustain of the guitars. There is something to be said for the fact that he used the old 1961 model Country Gent way through the periods were Gretsch came out with other models. Yes you will see him using them on personal appearances and in promo shots, but he prefered his older Gretsch in the most critical situations.
Jim P.,in regards to the "Fingerstyle Guitar" Gretsch, it is not an orange guitar, it is finished in red and does indeed have the Ray Butts proto pickups with two outputs, one for each pickup that made for a very different tone with one plugged into one channel on the Butts amp and the other plugged into the tape delay channel. My friend Jim Atkins, Chet's nephew owns this guitar today.
In regards to the new Gretsch reproductions--well they are just that.
The old Gretsch instruments had the worst neck pocket you could ever imagine!! I have taken the necks off the double cutaway Gents and for the life of me, I can't see what was holding them together. Many of these instruments have terrible neck pitch problems as a result of years of tension on a very flimsy neck to body joint. The truss rods on the older Gretsch guitars are one step above useless on most of them. The resurgence of the Gretsch instruments is more a result of them being so inexpensive for so long in the vintage market and thus affordable to the rockabilly retro folks and then when Stray Cats came along, the kids jumped on the bandwagon and started buying them, driving the prices out the roof.
$10,000 for a late 50s 6120!!???!! I have cancelled checks for these guitars that I bought in the 70s for the price of $50 and 60 dollars because at that time you could not give an old Gretsch guitar away. Only the diehard Atkins fans had much to do with them. There were a few rock players that used them but not many. So I personally feel that the price of these vintage instruments does not really coincide with the quality of the guitar. If I had $10K to buy a vintage guitar, I would buy a Gibson archtop and certainly not a Gretsch.
The new Gretsch guitars just use an old theme in a new package. They are probably built in Korea as are scores of the other plywood style archtop electrics. The instruments are probably better made in regards to fit and finish and neck joints and such, but I personally feel that the value that is added price wise is a bit much just because it has the word "Gretsch" on the headstock.
I saw the first import Gretsch guitars that Duke Kramer had when all this repro stuff got started. It was pretty goofy looking. Virtually nothing was correct looking at it at all. He told me that all this would be straightened out and he was right. In respect to the first group of these repros, the instruments made today are much closer to the originals in appearance.
If you look at the Gretsch marketing strategy you see that instead of ONLY making repros of the famous models that we dig, they are making all sorts of variations on the Gretsch theme. Smart move. Opens up the market to a lot more buyers.
As with all guitars, if you find one that really strikes your fancy, then get it, no matter from what time period new or old if you can afford it. Even massed produced instruments posess certain traits that make them special to a player.
Bottom line, it is still nice to see a Gretsch instrument being made today in whatever fashion. They deserve it when you look at the Gretsch place in guitar history.
The Gretsch instruments vary wildly in quality and playability. Yes Mr. Chet Atkins did play them but you have to take under consideration who this man was and how he could virtually make ANY guitar sound wonderful with his style of playing and his unique touch, coupled with his expertise in recording techniques and the electronics of his day. I quess what I am saying is that Atkins is more responsible for the sounds on his recordings than is the Gretsch guitar he is playing. Take under consideration that virtually ALL of his recordings from 1954 on were made using an amplifier of which only 50 were made also contributed to his sound. The other amp he used was the handmade Ray Butts amp with the tape delay built in. These amps contributed to his sound as much as the guitar.
He had lots of gripes with the Gretsch people as to quality control and the sustain of the guitars. There is something to be said for the fact that he used the old 1961 model Country Gent way through the periods were Gretsch came out with other models. Yes you will see him using them on personal appearances and in promo shots, but he prefered his older Gretsch in the most critical situations.
Jim P.,in regards to the "Fingerstyle Guitar" Gretsch, it is not an orange guitar, it is finished in red and does indeed have the Ray Butts proto pickups with two outputs, one for each pickup that made for a very different tone with one plugged into one channel on the Butts amp and the other plugged into the tape delay channel. My friend Jim Atkins, Chet's nephew owns this guitar today.
In regards to the new Gretsch reproductions--well they are just that.
The old Gretsch instruments had the worst neck pocket you could ever imagine!! I have taken the necks off the double cutaway Gents and for the life of me, I can't see what was holding them together. Many of these instruments have terrible neck pitch problems as a result of years of tension on a very flimsy neck to body joint. The truss rods on the older Gretsch guitars are one step above useless on most of them. The resurgence of the Gretsch instruments is more a result of them being so inexpensive for so long in the vintage market and thus affordable to the rockabilly retro folks and then when Stray Cats came along, the kids jumped on the bandwagon and started buying them, driving the prices out the roof.
$10,000 for a late 50s 6120!!???!! I have cancelled checks for these guitars that I bought in the 70s for the price of $50 and 60 dollars because at that time you could not give an old Gretsch guitar away. Only the diehard Atkins fans had much to do with them. There were a few rock players that used them but not many. So I personally feel that the price of these vintage instruments does not really coincide with the quality of the guitar. If I had $10K to buy a vintage guitar, I would buy a Gibson archtop and certainly not a Gretsch.
The new Gretsch guitars just use an old theme in a new package. They are probably built in Korea as are scores of the other plywood style archtop electrics. The instruments are probably better made in regards to fit and finish and neck joints and such, but I personally feel that the value that is added price wise is a bit much just because it has the word "Gretsch" on the headstock.
I saw the first import Gretsch guitars that Duke Kramer had when all this repro stuff got started. It was pretty goofy looking. Virtually nothing was correct looking at it at all. He told me that all this would be straightened out and he was right. In respect to the first group of these repros, the instruments made today are much closer to the originals in appearance.
If you look at the Gretsch marketing strategy you see that instead of ONLY making repros of the famous models that we dig, they are making all sorts of variations on the Gretsch theme. Smart move. Opens up the market to a lot more buyers.
As with all guitars, if you find one that really strikes your fancy, then get it, no matter from what time period new or old if you can afford it. Even massed produced instruments posess certain traits that make them special to a player.
Bottom line, it is still nice to see a Gretsch instrument being made today in whatever fashion. They deserve it when you look at the Gretsch place in guitar history.
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Pat Jenkins
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Rick McDuffie
- Posts: 1439
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- Location: Benson, North Carolina, USA
No feathers ruffled here, Bill. I agree with your appraisal, for the most part. I bought an orange '58 6120 for $300 in 1984... and sold it for $2300 2 years later.
I'm confident that this new Japanese product is much better than the "average" Gretsch of the late 60's or 70's... and, from what I've seen, it's also better than the first Gretsch reissues of the early 90's.
These were always great guitars, in function and beauty, but manufacturing was hit-and-miss.
But I don't care what you say, there ain't no Gibson humbucker that sounds like these Filtertrons... and "Windy and Warm" just can't be done justice on an ES175!
Plus... and this is a Big Deal... you gotta take the "cool factor" into account. Wait 'till I show up at my next gig with this White Falcon
R
I'm confident that this new Japanese product is much better than the "average" Gretsch of the late 60's or 70's... and, from what I've seen, it's also better than the first Gretsch reissues of the early 90's.
These were always great guitars, in function and beauty, but manufacturing was hit-and-miss.
But I don't care what you say, there ain't no Gibson humbucker that sounds like these Filtertrons... and "Windy and Warm" just can't be done justice on an ES175!
Plus... and this is a Big Deal... you gotta take the "cool factor" into account. Wait 'till I show up at my next gig with this White Falcon
R
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Bill Hatcher
- Posts: 7252
- Joined: 6 Nov 1998 1:01 am
- Location: Atlanta Ga. USA
Rick. One thing I would like to mention to you. If you are in contact with the Gretch higher ups, you might want to mention to them the absolute ill will they are spreading on Ebay with the senseless so called "protection" of the Gretsch name they put on these Asian guitars. The VERO mess allows them to contact Ebay and have any auction that has the name "Gretsch" or "Sho Bud" on it or any other name they own removed with absolutely no reason given. I personally have had an auction removed and had to start over because I put the phrase "NOT GIBSON, FENDER, GRETSCH" in the ad so as not to confuse anyone. The Gretsch folks are the only ones that bitched about their name used. This is only spreading bad will. Let them know it.
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Rick McDuffie
- Posts: 1439
- Joined: 2 Dec 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Benson, North Carolina, USA
I had exactly the same thing happen, and I wrote a note to the address that the VERO response gave me... no response from Gretsch. Frankly, I was offended- as you are... especially as I was given no forum for appeal.
This is stupid of them, but I don't know who to talk to... unless my rep can do something. I'll mention it to him, and maybe send him a link to this page so that he can see what people are saying. Tony Prior had a similar experience and concern.
This is also the fault of eBay, for they are the ones who are yanking peoples' auctions without appeal.
Having said that, I believe the orginal intention of this was to keep people from advertising something homemade as a "real Gretsch, Fender, etc.". It's just that the Gretsch eBay policeman appears to be especially anal-retentive. He/she would do well to exhibit a little of the above-mentioned "cool factor" in the public relations realm.
R<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 24 August 2004 at 07:22 AM.]</p></FONT>
This is stupid of them, but I don't know who to talk to... unless my rep can do something. I'll mention it to him, and maybe send him a link to this page so that he can see what people are saying. Tony Prior had a similar experience and concern.
This is also the fault of eBay, for they are the ones who are yanking peoples' auctions without appeal.
Having said that, I believe the orginal intention of this was to keep people from advertising something homemade as a "real Gretsch, Fender, etc.". It's just that the Gretsch eBay policeman appears to be especially anal-retentive. He/she would do well to exhibit a little of the above-mentioned "cool factor" in the public relations realm.
R<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 24 August 2004 at 07:22 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Herb Steiner
- Posts: 12505
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- Location: Spicewood TX 78669
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Regarding Fred Gretsch's now-legendary litigiousness, threatening everyone who even approaches mentioning the oh-so-precious Gretsch, Bigsby, and Sho-Bud names anywhere: on the Gretsch/Bigsby website is a photo of a Bigsby guitar, owned by me, photo taken by me, taken from my website, not credited to me and without my permission to use it.
I contacted their website provider months ago, and he said he'd take care of it. I asked for a photo credit and link to my website. Months ago. Think it happened? Yeah, right.
They could use it for nothing if they weren't such insufferable putzes!
I own a Sho-Bud steel, but it's of the era before Freddie Gee owned the company. I WILL NEVER OWN A GRETSCH PRODUCT, and that you can take to the bank, baby.
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 24 August 2004 at 08:32 AM.]</p></FONT>
I contacted their website provider months ago, and he said he'd take care of it. I asked for a photo credit and link to my website. Months ago. Think it happened? Yeah, right.
They could use it for nothing if they weren't such insufferable putzes!
I own a Sho-Bud steel, but it's of the era before Freddie Gee owned the company. I WILL NEVER OWN A GRETSCH PRODUCT, and that you can take to the bank, baby.
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 24 August 2004 at 08:32 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Jim Phelps
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Rick McDuffie
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- Location: Benson, North Carolina, USA
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Jim Phelps
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Jim Phelps
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Roger Rettig
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It's well-worth reading Chet's own account of his relationship with Gretsch in the excellent 'Me And My Guitars' book.
He was frankly delighted to be asked to endorse a guitar - only Les Paul had done it before - but he was less-than enthusiastic with the guitars themselves. He disliked the 'western' motifs all over some of them, and called their build-quality into question, especially later on. He eventually wanted to extricate himself from the arrangement, but stayed longer than someone else might have done - Atkins was clearly an honourable man.
I had a Jet Firebird in my teens - I spent a lot of time trying to justify my choice to my Gibson-owning pals when they'd point out flaws in the finish of my pride and joy!
I DID look cool, though!!!!
These new ones ARE just reproductions, but they're better-built by far.
RR
He was frankly delighted to be asked to endorse a guitar - only Les Paul had done it before - but he was less-than enthusiastic with the guitars themselves. He disliked the 'western' motifs all over some of them, and called their build-quality into question, especially later on. He eventually wanted to extricate himself from the arrangement, but stayed longer than someone else might have done - Atkins was clearly an honourable man.
I had a Jet Firebird in my teens - I spent a lot of time trying to justify my choice to my Gibson-owning pals when they'd point out flaws in the finish of my pride and joy!
I DID look cool, though!!!!
These new ones ARE just reproductions, but they're better-built by far.
RR
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Rick McDuffie
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Joe Alterio
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- Location: Irvington, Indiana
I was close to buying a new Gretsch a couple of years ago before Fender got involved....but at the time, they were too expensive for the quality you got.
Consensus at the Gretsch Pages forum was that the electronics were ALWAYS going bad within a year, the strap holder button was generally breaking off within the first year, and the pickups were so bad that a lot of people were buying the TV Jones pickups as soon as they bought their "new" guitar....I didn't want to drop $1,500 on a guitar only to have to immediately replace the electronics, pickups and strap button.
Plus, Setzer himself was starting to demand that the sig model be built to HIS specs, as the tops were the wrong thickness.
Apparently, Fender has directed Gretsch to make some changes, having immediately put in better wiring (I believe Switchcraft), introducing new models with TV Jones pickups, and putting on strap buttons that don't break off.
What I'm saying is, I would go for a new Gretsch today....but any prior to Fender's involvement I would stay away from.
(Note: Fender-Gretsch guitars have the serial number and "Made in Japan" stamped on the back of the headstock....before that, the serial number was inside the guitar and a tacky gold "Made in Japan" sticker was placed on the neck joint).
Rick, I am glad that you got the guitar YOU wanted! You knew you wanted a Falcon, so getting any other Gretsch would never have satisfied that desire....now you got one that you can be proud of!
Joe
Consensus at the Gretsch Pages forum was that the electronics were ALWAYS going bad within a year, the strap holder button was generally breaking off within the first year, and the pickups were so bad that a lot of people were buying the TV Jones pickups as soon as they bought their "new" guitar....I didn't want to drop $1,500 on a guitar only to have to immediately replace the electronics, pickups and strap button.
Plus, Setzer himself was starting to demand that the sig model be built to HIS specs, as the tops were the wrong thickness.
Apparently, Fender has directed Gretsch to make some changes, having immediately put in better wiring (I believe Switchcraft), introducing new models with TV Jones pickups, and putting on strap buttons that don't break off.
What I'm saying is, I would go for a new Gretsch today....but any prior to Fender's involvement I would stay away from.
(Note: Fender-Gretsch guitars have the serial number and "Made in Japan" stamped on the back of the headstock....before that, the serial number was inside the guitar and a tacky gold "Made in Japan" sticker was placed on the neck joint).
Rick, I am glad that you got the guitar YOU wanted! You knew you wanted a Falcon, so getting any other Gretsch would never have satisfied that desire....now you got one that you can be proud of!
Joe
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CrowBear Schmitt
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Roger Rettig
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'Charlie Christian' refers to those distinctive early Gibson pick-ups, not a specific guitar. In any case, I'm fairly sure that 'CC' is an unofficial name for these items.
Rick..
You're quite right, of course, but the Nick Lucas flat-top (launched in 1928) was made in small quantities, and in a very different market place than the one that the 'Les Paul' and, eventually, the 'Chet' Gretsches were in. I should have said 'commercially significant' - look what's happened! There are young players out there that don't know that Les Paul is a real guy!
Besides, Gretsch and Gibson used Chet's and Les' name on a whole range of instruments.
RR
RR<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 24 August 2004 at 03:31 PM.]</p></FONT>
Rick..
You're quite right, of course, but the Nick Lucas flat-top (launched in 1928) was made in small quantities, and in a very different market place than the one that the 'Les Paul' and, eventually, the 'Chet' Gretsches were in. I should have said 'commercially significant' - look what's happened! There are young players out there that don't know that Les Paul is a real guy!
Besides, Gretsch and Gibson used Chet's and Les' name on a whole range of instruments.
RR
RR<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 24 August 2004 at 03:31 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Jim Phelps
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Joe Alterio
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Les who is a what now?<SMALL>There are young players out there that don't know that Les Paul is a real guy!</SMALL>
Funny how just about any famous guitarist, no matter how bad they may be, can get their own signature model. The Tom DeLonge Strat is a great example of both a horrible guitarist and an equally horrible guitar....no, I'm not exaggerating!!!!
I've always wondered about some of Gretsch's signature artists....a Stephen Stills WHITE FALCON?!? What's the market for that? Or how about the models for Elliot Easton (guitarist for the...err...Cars)? Odd....
Joe
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Roger Rettig
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Yes - the World's gone mad!
The biggest travesty for me is C.F. Martin's defection to this ego-massaging trend - there are Martin 'signature' guitars 'honouring' people I've never even heard of!
My Custom Shop 000-28 arrived last week, and it's quite beautiful; all I wanted was a 000-28 as it might have looked new in 1950, or thereabouts. Martin have an excellent 'Vintage Series' that would have satisfied me, but - guess what? Their VS 000-28 has Eric Clapton's name on it!!!!! There are one or two other minor inconsistencies as well, but I had these corrected, the 'signature' left off, the proper rosette-surround, and I have maybe the best acoustic I ever owned.
I mean, I can see some of these newer builders going for that garbage, but Martin??? I suppose they're yielding to market demands, but it's a pity.
Boy, I bet that 'Tom DeLonge' Strat will be a collectors piece in a few years!
"Tom DeWhat?"
As an aside, and back to Rick's thread (!!!), these repro Gretsch guitars are great for us babyboomers! Not just because of Chet, but Eddie Cochran and Duane Eddy made all their hits on their 6120s.
Anyone else remember the days when a r'n'r superstar only owned one guitar?
RR
The biggest travesty for me is C.F. Martin's defection to this ego-massaging trend - there are Martin 'signature' guitars 'honouring' people I've never even heard of!
My Custom Shop 000-28 arrived last week, and it's quite beautiful; all I wanted was a 000-28 as it might have looked new in 1950, or thereabouts. Martin have an excellent 'Vintage Series' that would have satisfied me, but - guess what? Their VS 000-28 has Eric Clapton's name on it!!!!! There are one or two other minor inconsistencies as well, but I had these corrected, the 'signature' left off, the proper rosette-surround, and I have maybe the best acoustic I ever owned.
I mean, I can see some of these newer builders going for that garbage, but Martin??? I suppose they're yielding to market demands, but it's a pity.
Boy, I bet that 'Tom DeLonge' Strat will be a collectors piece in a few years!
"Tom DeWhat?"
As an aside, and back to Rick's thread (!!!), these repro Gretsch guitars are great for us babyboomers! Not just because of Chet, but Eddie Cochran and Duane Eddy made all their hits on their 6120s.
Anyone else remember the days when a r'n'r superstar only owned one guitar?
RR
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Rick McDuffie
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- Location: Benson, North Carolina, USA
Right, Roger. It's a trademark guitar of "My Generation". In fact, Pete Townshend recorded virtually all of "Quadraphenia" on a 6120.
My desire for a Falcon can be traced directly to Mike Nesmith and (believe it or not, Joe) Stephen Stills
I've got the Brian Setzer orchestra Live DVD (from Japan) and man, is that some great stuff! It's a good band, and Brian plays some great stuff. In these days of media hype and pseudo-talent, he's the real deal. Stray Cats didn't do anything for me, though... <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 24 August 2004 at 06:33 PM.]</p></FONT>
My desire for a Falcon can be traced directly to Mike Nesmith and (believe it or not, Joe) Stephen Stills
I've got the Brian Setzer orchestra Live DVD (from Japan) and man, is that some great stuff! It's a good band, and Brian plays some great stuff. In these days of media hype and pseudo-talent, he's the real deal. Stray Cats didn't do anything for me, though... <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 24 August 2004 at 06:33 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Jim Phelps
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Jim Phelps
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Hi Jim -- nice axe! Thanks for sharing the photo. And, thanks for the invite, but I'll have to pass. I've heard things can get pretty crazy down there. I used to work with a guy who like to take his car way down into Mexico and he had some real stories to tell. I remember he said he was driving down some Mexican highway at night going about 55 or so, and a hugh bus passed going about 80 . . . . with no lights on what-so-ever.