Annoying overtones and buzzing

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 27 Nov 2003 7:06 am

Hi pro's,- I need your help in determining whether I'm going crazy or not..

In both my weissenborn copies I have these annoying 'whistling' overtones in the treble register and some buzzing (almost 'distortion') in the bass register.
Is this a normal phenomenon in acoustic lap steel guitars?

I don't think there's anything wrong with my damping technique, but I do pick pretty hard at times (and of course,- the harder I pick the more 'noise' I get). I've mentioned this to several luthiers, including Neil Russell who's built one of the guitars, and it seems like this is something I just got to live with, or simply ignore and hope it goes away.
Neil also mentioned the possibility of filing down the saddle since he has built it at maximum height, maybe it would help, but so far I've decided to keep it as it is since the 'noise' is also present in my Superior which has much lower action.
And, as far as I can tell, there are no loose bracing in any of the guitars.

I realize that from having a recording studio for years, my ears are probably extremely 'finetuned' towards spotting any unwanted sounds, so I'm open for the suggestion that I'm too neurotic about this.

So,- should I simply 'forget' about it, and if not,- should I take this to a luthier or a psychologist?

PS - I might mention that it's the same problem with or without pickup installed, so there can't be any wires causing this, and I've also tried various string gauges (I'm now using Newtone 'Aloha' strings, gauged 15-56 tuned to open D and low bass G)

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 27 November 2003 at 07:30 AM.]

Loni Specter · Post by **Loni Specter** » 27 Nov 2003 9:44 am

Try putting a piece of foam rubber between the nut and the tuning machines to dampen any unharmonic overtones. If that does not eliminate the noise, ask your wife to leave the room. That should do it! ;-}

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 27 Nov 2003 2:51 pm

I hear that on my Superior too, and tend to notice it more on the highest string. I would describe it more like a rattle. My guitar tech says everything's ok with the guitar so I live with it. There's also some of buzzing in the bass register that several Celtic Cross owners I know also complained of and is also present in the Superior when picked hard.

Bill

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 27 Nov 2003 7:54 pm

I've got one of Neil's Weissenborns and have not noticed this at all

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 27 November 2003 at 08:00 PM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 28 Nov 2003 4:35 am

Thanks for your replies guys!

Greg (and Neil, I know you're lurking

) - I don't mean to criticise the guitar, I love the sound of my CC, and on a studio session I was involved in a few weeks back the engineer was full of praise for its sound (and then he mentioned the 'strange background noises'....).

Bill - good to know I'm not the only one, I was worried it was me having a case of hypersensitive ears..

Loni - aha, so now it's; "should I take this to a luthier, psychologist OR a marriage consultant"?

I'll try damping the strings behind the nut and see what happens.

I don't consider these problems to be 'showstoppers',- in a band setting it's not a problem, on a solo recording it is audible but not 'fatal'.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 28 November 2003 at 04:52 AM.]

Cliff Oliver · Post by **Cliff Oliver** » 28 Nov 2003 6:01 am

You shouldnt have to live with those offending overtones. Here is a test. Tighten the offending string until the squeeling goes away, if it goes away, and hopefully before the string breaks. If the overtone does go away after tightening the string, and before it breaks, the offender more than likely is the nut/bridge fit to the string. Try using a bigger gauge string or get a better fit.
If tightening the string solves the overtone problem it could also be that tightening something loose in the guitar that resonates with this string causing this overtone and maybe next to impossible to trace down.
Last month I was using my lap steel at a gig and a friend in the audience said it was squeeling on the high notes, #1 string. I couldnt hear it immediately, but a few hundred watts really brought it out. I went with the next bigger gauge string and everything is fine.

Chuck Fisher · Post by **Chuck Fisher** » 28 Nov 2003 9:08 pm

I had a Superior and it had an odd ring on eithr the 4th or 3rd string. Only when you play really hard. I traced it to inadequate breakover pressure on the bridge-bone.

get a luthier to put a real bone slightly higher insert in the bridge, or work on string-slits on the bridge.

Also I assume you looked for strings hung on windings not seating ball right on the bridge...

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 29 Nov 2003 9:44 am

Cliff,- I think you're on to something, because the few times I've tuned up to open E this seemes to have reduced the problem (but not eliminated it). Since the Newtone strings I use have a softer tension than ordinary bronze-wounds (gauged 15-56), and Malcolm Newton claims that they come up to tension at highbass G, maybe I should try a set of D'Addario 'dobro' strings (16-56?).

Chuck,- I'm always very careful that I bring up the strings to the bridgeplate when I change them, so I don't think that's the problem. But I see your point,- unfortunately I don't have a dentist mirror, so I can't check them (but a check at my local 'torturist' is way overdue so maybe I should make an appointment and see if I can get an old mirror from her...

)

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Patrick Ickes · Post by **Patrick Ickes** » 29 Nov 2003 7:19 pm

It sounds similar to problems I've had in the past with different instruments, both acoustic and electric. It almost always ended up being bad strings. Get the D'Addarios and see if the problem goes away. If not, try another brand and/or gauges. Good luck.
Pat

Chuck Fisher · Post by **Chuck Fisher** » 30 Nov 2003 4:59 pm

Steiner,

I was describing 2 separate possibilities.

On my Superior if you played real hard the string would actually buzz on the bridge-bone because the wood on the bridge didnt let the string press hard downward. Sounded fine unless you really bared down. I had a friend push string with a dowel between the bridgebone and the string pin and it stopped.

Also, the bridge insert on the Superior is inferior compared to the rest of the guitar, so it and the plastic string-pins need to go away anyhow.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 30 Nov 2003 5:14 pm

Thanks Chuck,- got it.
Will have my local repairman take a look at it and make me a higher saddle in bone.

Only thing that puzzles me with this solution is that my Celtic Cross has a saddle that is almost twice as high as the Superior, and yet I have the same problems there. But I'll give it a shot, never cared much for the 'cheap' plastic feel of the saddle on the Superior anyhow.

I would guess places like Stewmac and maybe Elderly offers quality bridge pins?
Will also order some 16-56 D'Addarios asap and see if that helps some.

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www.gregertsen.com

David Siegler · Post by **David Siegler** » 30 Nov 2003 10:53 pm

Steiner,

I have this problem on my Neil Russell guitar as well. It has baffled several top rate luthier/repair people. One of them explored the inside of the guitar with a tiny camera and found no significant problems with braces, the bridge plate or string ends. I have tried different string sets, etc.

I have gotten the tones with or without the bridge pins in place. I have gotten them on most of the strings and even when only one string remained on the guitar. It has made me crazy at times.

Here's what I have observed. I can mostly eliminate the tones if I play w/out finger picks and if I use a Red or Black Rajah bar. When I use a metal bar and/or picks with a moderately strong attack the increase in vibration generates the buzzing.

I sent the guitar to Kerry Char who does some of Neil's warranty work in the USA and he tried a variety of things including reducing the nut height and saddle height (actually replaced the saddle). It seems that reducing the height gave about a 33% improvement so you might give that a try.

My guitar is made of Australian Blackwood that I imported and sent to Neil. Kerry has one theory that says the wood is stiffer than koa and might not have had this problem it was a little thiner. I don't know. I will probably put a vibrator to the guitar to see if loosening the top up a bit will help. I'm concerned that it might have the opposite effect.

As Bill Leff mentioned, I checked with two other Russell owners and a few other weissenborn "copy" guitar owners. It seems everyone was able to get some sort of weird buzz if they used a strong enough attack. Mine seems to be worse than theirs - maybe it's the Blackwood. It's also true that the other two friends with the Russells do not play with finger picks and so the "problem" really doesn't bother them.

I'm still dealing with the issue and the guitar. It is a beautiful instrument with a lot of custom work on it and has a nice balanced tone. But the buzzing and overtones sometimes drive me crazy. So, if you are crazy at least you have some company!

David

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 1 Dec 2003 5:27 am

Very interesting post, David (unfortunately it only left me even more confused...)

I have also noticed that as long as I play soft, the moises are reduced to a minimum. But playing without fingerpicks is not an option for me since I have a rather 'dynamic' playing style and need the picks to be able to really 'dig in' sometimes.

A wild shot (in the dark woods),- is blackwood 'related' to mahogany? Just a thought, since my CC is all mahogany and my Superior is mahogany back and sides with a spruce top...... (?)

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Cliff Oliver · Post by **Cliff Oliver** » 2 Dec 2003 9:03 am

Steiner,
I think you will find the offender to be the bridge, the bridge material, how the string sits in the bridge and the tension of the strings. More thank likely going to a larger guage string will provide enough tension that when attacked hard with your fingerpicks the string will not move on the bridge.
I think bridge material makes a difference also. The bridge is obviously feeding back to the string and making tone, otherwise we would all make our guitars out of the same material, because it wouldn't matter. The density of the material matters to the tone and the feedback, very evident in instruments like banjos and violins where small changes in bridge design and materials make significant tonal differences. For the same size bridge, a denser material will feedback to the string higher frequencies more easily, a larger bridge lower frequencies and evidently the feedback is such that it causes the string to either move or produce those offending overtones.
I dont pretend to understand the dynamics of why it is causing these overtone but when strings are old and lose tension the same problems occur. That tells me the string is moving on the bridge or the feedback to the string is such that it causes this smaller lower tension string to produce these offending overtones.

Here is where I help someone out. Anybody reading this that has a kid at a university majoring in engineering should encourage them to do research on the why's and whereof's of this interelationship on our musical instruments. They could certainly justify a Master Thesis or Pherhaps got doctrinal paper produced from this research alone. Reading all the research done on violin bridges would be a good start.
Cheers

Dwight Mark · Post by **Dwight Mark** » 2 Dec 2003 4:24 pm

You can put me in the category of having steel bar buzz. I've had my tech guy play with my Oahu and Weissenborn, and sometimes we just can't figure out if it's coming from a tuning machine or a brace or what - it seems like it's coming from the steel bar on the string and it boggle's me sometimes.

Dwight

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 2 Dec 2003 4:33 pm

Funny you should mention that.
The engineer I worked with a while back, who has the most accurate ears I've ever witnessed in action, claimed the 'sounds' came from my steelbar.
To me it has always sounded as if it comes from the bridge area, but he swore he heard it coming from the steelbar.......

But if it's a matter of 'steel on steel' then why doesn't everybody experience it?
Is it simply a matter of us being sloppy players?

Steinar

PS - Cliff, are you referring to the whole bridge or just the saddle (plastic/bone bit..)

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www.gregertsen.com

Dwight Mark · Post by **Dwight Mark** » 2 Dec 2003 7:09 pm

Well, being a sloppy player is a given, but when I have my luthier sitting there with me, sometimes I'll just hold the steel on one note and keep plucking it - and I don't use finger or thumbpicks, and there will be this metallicy buzz and he'll put his ear all over the instrument trying to figure out where it is coming from.
Not to start another topic, but I guess I will. I use pretty heavy low strings on my Weissenborns to bring it down to a C - does anyone else experience the low string going sharp or sharper than the other strings the further you go up the neck. I go to the fifth fret and it looks like I'm dead straight above the fret, and the low note is sharp. Is there a need to explore the buzz feiten system or whatever and compensate a little bit at the nut?

Dwight

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 2 Dec 2003 7:31 pm

I always tune the sixth string a little flat compared to what my tuner claims is the 'correct' pitch. I also do this on my regular acoustic guitar.
Even when played open it sounds sharp to me, so I always compensate for that.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

David Siegler · Post by **David Siegler** » 3 Dec 2003 12:20 am

The buzz does seem to come from the bar most of the time. That's what it seems like to me.

To add some more information to the puzzle I had Neil ship me my guitar with three different saddles so I could see which I prefered. The buzz was there using any of them - aluminum, brass or bone. And as I mentioned earlier, Kerry made another bone saddle which is in the bridge now. It seems to buzz less with the new lower saddle and lower nut but it's still annoying.

Australian Blackwood is an Acacia very similar to Koa. It is not related to Mahogany.

David

Cliff Oliver · Post by **Cliff Oliver** » 3 Dec 2003 8:03 pm

David,
It buzzes using different material in the saddles? Does it buzz in the open position without the bar on the strings?
If it does, there is some feedback going to the string through the nut and or bridge, assuming all is seated well and in the saddles properly. Has anyone tried a plastic saddle like the ones on Ricky's?

On my pedal steel guitar tuned E9, the high G# which is a .010 buzzes, whines. Mine are relatively new rollers with no wear. Most of the guys stick an .011 there to take care of the problem, or at least minimize it.

My vote is go cheap ($1.00) and quick and stick a bigger gauge string in there.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 4 Dec 2003 8:00 am

Okay, let's see.......

Suggested problems:
- strings are 'alive' behind the nut
- string tension (too low)
- saddle too low (Superior)
- saddle too high (Celtic Cross)
- bridgepins
- steelbar

Troubleshooting:
- have ordered D'Addario 016-056 (use 015 now, will not go heavier than 016 on my first string).
- am waiting to pick up the Superior from my repairman, he's made a higher saddle in bone.
- will ask him to file down the saddle and nut on the Celtic Cross
- have ordered new bridgepins (some nice metal ones)
- will probably order a Phoenix or Rajah bar, maybe one of Loni's glass SlipperySlides as well. Will miss the 'handle' of my SP2 though....
- will try damping the strings behind the nut (haven't done that yet, lazy me.....)

Phew...... anybody have a trombone for sale?

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 4 Dec 2003 3:20 pm

Just a quick aside, if you're buying a Red Rajah bar I'm pretty sure I've seen one that had small grooves in the side like those Carter ones (but not as extreme). This might mitigate the loss of the "handle" on your Shubb.

-Travis

Dwight Mark · Post by **Dwight Mark** » 4 Dec 2003 6:29 pm

Well, looking at your list - you've pretty much taken everyone's advice, but you need to by one of my special buzzfix fingerpicks. It will take away the buzz for a mere $100 U.S. dollars...

Dwight

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 4 Dec 2003 6:37 pm

Can't afford it right now Dwight, I've just ordered one of those 'Instant Talent' plugins for my recording software. But thanks anyway..

Rick Aiello was kind enough to offer me one of his spare Red Rajah steels, the small tapered one, and I look forward to hearing how/if that affects the tone.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Dwight Mark · Post by **Dwight Mark** » 4 Dec 2003 9:58 pm

The plugin doesn't work - of course nothing works for me in that area...
However, ironically, I got my 8-string Celtic Cross back from my luthier and he added the sitar bridge saddle on the 8th string - and I don't think it buzzes enough... The way he installed it, it doesn't buzz when plucked as an open string, and it buzzes like a sitar, but doesn't ring as much as a sitar does when sliding up and down... He did suggest a thinner gauge string - I have to try it.
Maybe you're going the wrong direction... Maybe we can design a steel that can enhance your string buzz to sound like a sitar. It would make George Harrison proud.

Dwight