Nashville numbering

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 16 May 2004 6:47 am

I know how to write chord charts in Nashville numbering system, but how do you write out melodies? Is there a standard? Do you write the melody out in the key of C? What's the scoop?

Thanks,
Bill
http://www.wgpeters.com

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 May 2004 6:58 am

Do they?

carl

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 16 May 2004 2:39 pm

Melody lines are usually memorized on the spot if needed, but sometimes the charts will have little I.D. licks written near the placement area in note form (or even drum notes for timing and the numbers of the melody above or below those).

If a chart gets too complex for a numbers chart (which does happen), it'll be on more traditional staff paper, chords marked each bar with critical lines written out in notation form.[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 16 May 2004 at 03:39 PM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 16 May 2004 5:35 pm

WEll you can actually write out a side-bar melody line in numbers....>Like Doe re me fa so la ti doe...is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8.
So if you have a melody line in the key of C ; and the melody starts on the C note; then you would write 1 and so on..>make sense??
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 16 May 2004 at 06:35 PM.]

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 17 May 2004 10:32 am

Try this:
http://www.nashvillenumbersystem.com/

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©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
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William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 17 May 2004 11:27 am

Smiley,

Yeah, thats probably what I'm looking for.

Thanks to all who answered,

Bill http://www.wgpeters.com

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 19 May 2004 9:30 am

William, the short answer would be:
You do not use the Nashville Number System for writing melody lines, just chord progressions. For melody lines, there's no more practical way than standard notation.
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 19 May 2004 10:24 am

James,
That would be very simple. That would be the key of "C". 1-2-3,A-B-C. Get it?

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<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 19 May 2004 1:08 pm

John,

So if I wrote out a lead sheet, with the melody in the key of C (which is the easiest, having no flats or sharps except accidentals), and with chords written out as numbers, would most players understand it?

I want to produce some lead sheets for my songwriter friend who writes, plays, and sings a lot better than he transcribes.

Bill

Bill www.wgpeters.com

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 May 2004 8:43 am

My band isn't particularly well schooled, but the guitarist and I still communicate melody/harmony lines by using the names of the notes we're playing. It's actually easier than numbers once the key of the song is set.

If you don't know the names of the notes on your guitar, you should! It's not that hard to learn, and it makes communication with other musicians a lot easier.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 24 May 2004 9:26 am

THE NASHVILLE NUMBER SYSTEM** What a Crock.
I learned the number system as a kid in a New York Mid School in the 1950's. Its based on the 12 tone scale and Nashville has no brand on it. It was written hundreds of years ago long before Nashville. My first encounter was in a local club here when the club owner asked me to help a road band that had a member who had become ill. When I met the guys the first thing they asked me was "Do I know the Nashville Number System?" I answered you mean if the key is C C is 1, F is 4, G is 5. He said yes "The Nashville Number System." I answered Oh, I guess Beethoven knew the Nashville Number System" also! Again I say " What a Crock"..........

[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 24 May 2004 at 10:36 AM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 24 May 2004 11:41 am

William, I'm sorry I missed your question.
I think you would be sliding down a slippery slope hoping that people reading your lead sheet could transpose from C on sight. Some could, I'm sure, most would have trouble. If it was simply for reference and not for on-the-spot sight reading, it would be fine.
I'm afraid if you wish to produce a sheet to spell out the melody, that you'd have to decide on a key and go from there. Most people let the singer pick the key. If they need to move it to accomodate a situation, that's their job.
Having said that, some people have unusual reading skills. I've recently been gigging with a 15-year-old alto sax player. You can hand him a lead sheet written for tenor sax, or in concert pitch, and he'll play it in any key you want. That's not usual.
The "Nashville Number System" is helpful for songs that stay constant in one tonal center. But not very helpful at all for songs that jump around. For instance, while you could chart out the entire Hank Williams Song Book in number charts, I've never seen a number system chart for a song like "How High The Moon", or "Four", etc... songs in which the key center keeps changing. Number charts are all about intervals and relationships between static chords. If "One" keeps moving, you're sunk.
-John

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William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 24 May 2004 11:52 am

John,

I think you have answered my question the best of anyone. I just wanted to know if there was a standard, and if there was, what was it.

I have no trouble transposing sheet music on the fly, but I know a lot of people can't, just like some can't play by ear, and some can't read music at all.

I think I'll just make my leadsheets without using Nashville numbering at all.

Bill
[This message was edited by William Peters on 24 May 2004 at 02:32 PM.]

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 25 May 2004 3:02 am

Sorry Ron,this was NOT "Beethoven's Baby"!
A gentleman by the name of Joseph Schillinger came up w/ it. http://www.geodyne.com/schillinger/

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<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 May 2004 9:36 am

Ah...actually, Smiley, Schillinger counts the chromatic scale from 0 to 12, the same way steelers count frets. Counting from 1 to 8 predates Schillinger and Beethoven, by centuries. But I do get Ron's point. When I learned piano in the '50s, I was taught the tonic chord (I), sub-dominant 4th (IV) and dominant 5th (V). So when I later heard guitarists calling out chords that way, I knew exactly what they meant. But I do think the Nashville cats spruced things up a bit with some additional marks.

I think the number system can handle key modulations within songs okay. You just note what the new key is, and then start with I, IV, V, etc. in that key.

Jimmy Dale · Post by **Jimmy Dale** » 25 May 2004 9:35 pm

Yes, it's called the Nashville Number System but, it's my understanding that while it's true the "Nashville Cats" didn't actually come up with the numbers, they did come up with the symbols for Majors, Minors etc. IE: The little triangle is Maj7, the degree mark is Dim. the plus for Aug. etc.
Now, this is only my understanding so don't hit me over the head to hard. Jimmy I'D RATHER BE STEELIN'[This message was edited by Jimmy Dale on 25 May 2004 at 10:37 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 25 May 2004 9:58 pm

William,
I have seen some charts done up in a certain key, with the chord names above the annotated melody, with the the "number signs" for chords above the chord names. Best of both worlds, I guess.
-John

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 25 May 2004 10:01 pm

I am 56 years old. That means I was in 8th grade in 1959-1960 I think. Anyway I learned the triangle for Maj7 then in theory classes. So do we still say Nashville boys created the symbols? Also I know all my key signatures by heart. So if the band is gonna kick off in D,the bass player can stick up 2 fingers for the key of D (D has 2 sharps) Fo F he holds one down cuz there is one flat in F. Okay this is old stuff. I don't see how there is something new in sticking up 1,2,4,5 fingers to tell me what the progression is. That is just standard music theory. If the Nashville Number System goes from zero to 12 as in Schillinger's stuff. I don't want to know that. That sounds totally nuts to me. Like trying to say a yard is now 39.5 inches cuz it makes more sense to me. Wow! ....

Anyway if there is something more to the Nashville Number System that I don't know. Somebody tell me. I am all ears and willing to learn.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 25 May 2004 10:02 pm

And,
With regard to the "Nashville" designation, I'm sure nobody would argue that it was invented in Nashville.
However, one might argue that it was most useful in a setting like Nashville, seething with off-the-cuff session players cutting unfamiliar tunes... the tonal centre of which was less likely to change than some other forms... hence the term.
Just my opinion.
-John

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Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 26 May 2004 2:56 am

Ron,one thing we do know for sure is, it has been a success in the Nashville music scene and it has made sitting in anywhere very easy when others are familiar with it. It has made it easy charting my material to new band members. Makes no diference to me who thought it up.Works for me.

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Shaan Shirazi · Post by **Shaan Shirazi** » 26 May 2004 6:15 am

While we're on the subject, I was helping a guy out with numbering his songs last night and one was in a minor key.

The progression was F#m, A, D, Bm and my first stab was to say the key was F#m and the numbers would be: 1m, b3, b6, 4m. To the new guy this was very confusing because I was naming the chords based on the numbers relative to the major scale and not the actual order in the minor key. For instance A= 3rd note in the minor scale but b3rd in the major scale of F#m.

We eventually decided to chart it in the Key of A resulting in : 6m, 1, 4, 2m which we thought would be easier for most people to get.

So, the question is: Should minor key songs be charted in the relative major key? And, Should chromatic notes always be named flat or sharp relative to the major scale?

Shaan

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David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 26 May 2004 7:47 am

Shan, I think the standard would be to number the chords of a minor key according to the minor scale (not the major scale). But there was a thread a few weeks ago in which Reece Anderson and others commented that sometimes it is easier to approach minor chord progressions from the standpoint of the related major. This fits with your example in that the chords of the F#m key look very familiar written out as the chords of the related key of A major. They are just VIm, IIm, I, IV and V7. So if you know the chords and symbols for the key of A major, you already know them for the relative F#m key. This works, but is not exactly standard notation.

Jimmy Dale · Post by **Jimmy Dale** » 26 May 2004 11:47 am

I sure wish Buddy would put his two cents in here. He was there DOING THAT in the early 50's. I for one will take his word for it. Jimmy I'D RATHER BE STEELIN'
PS: Hey I'll take John Hughey's word too. Doug Jernigan, I'll take your word. Any of you early session players. I'll take your word. You are probably sitting out there somewhere chuckling about all this anyway.