Music Technique Terminology-trained theorists?

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 20 Jan 2004 9:41 am

Got a question for you book learnin' guys.

I believe there is an orchestral term for this, but darn if I can remember it...

The technique is this... one instrument sustains a note; another instrument fades in matching that note and timbre; first instrument fades leaving second instrument to continue playing.

an example is on the tune "Sky King" by Danny Gatton... at the end of the saxophone solo the sax goes way up for a high sqealing note that magically turns into a sustained harmonic squeal on a telecaster that continues into a tele solo...

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Jan 2004 10:24 am

I don't know the orchestral term, but I think that recording engineers call it a "cross-fade".

Jeremy Steele · Post by **Jeremy Steele** » 20 Jan 2004 10:31 am

Same thing happens on Linda Ronstadt's recording of "You're No Good"...the last note of the guitar break turns into sustained violins (or synthesizers)..don't know the name for it, but it's a cool trick.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 20 Jan 2004 10:31 am

I think that recording engineers call it a "cross-fade".

yeah I think they do b0b... but I know there's a spiffy Italian or German term for this in orchestral music, I just can't think of it, and it's a hard concept to put in a Google search...[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 20 January 2004 at 10:33 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 Jan 2004 10:39 am

Well, until the real deal comes along, how about "sequential sustain" or "sustenuto sequendo"? Some horn players can fill their cheeks up and sustain the note with mouth pressure while they take a second breath through their nose. For steel, we just need a 5000 watt amp and a volume pedal with a really long throw.

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 20 Jan 2004 11:06 am

Is that the same thing that's happening on Ricky Skaggs "Highway 40 Blues" tele/steel trade off on the break - Or am I thinking of something else?

Respectfully,
Dave Burr[This message was edited by Dave Burr on 20 January 2004 at 11:06 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 20 Jan 2004 11:14 am

I think that recording engineers call it a "cross-fade"...yeah I think they do b0b... but I know there's a spiffy Italian or German term for this in orchestral music

In Italian, it's called "Crosso Fado"
In German, it's "KreuzFad"

Now you know! Don't be surprised if you find them in next month's crossword puzzle!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 20 Jan 2004 11:17 am

Other than an orchestral cross fade, like when a reed instrument crossfades to a flute, for resolution. The only word that could be used, that I know of, would be hocket.

Originally a music technique, back in medieval times, to either sustain vocal lines or to produce a rhythmic bouncing or hiccup (which is where the word hiccup probably came from) by alternating voices.

A famous piece using that form was Hoquetus David by Guillaume Machaut who died in 1377.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 20 Jan 2004 11:24 am

In Italian, it's called "Crosso Fado"

Yeah, and the Cajuns call it a "Croix Fais do do" (fay-doe-doe). Thanks for playing Jimbeaux.

[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 20 January 2004 at 11:24 AM.]

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 20 Jan 2004 12:58 pm

I always thought of it as
Morphing from one sound to another.
It works that way with synths.
Morphing would be my word of choice.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 20 Jan 2004 1:32 pm

Chas Smith and Frank Zappa (both highly esteemed in my book) refer to it as "hocketing", so I'd use that in case you want to impress your date

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 20 Jan 2004 1:51 pm

I used a similar technique between solos on my last jazz compositiom album.
That or a harmony comes up on the last few notes and takes over as next solo.
Cool technique.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 20 Jan 2004 4:11 pm

I can't recall the name of the Freddie Hart song but back when he was riding high on the charts, Lloyd Green pointed out a similar effect they used. Charlie McCoy, on a B-24 organ was on the left channel stereo and when it crossed over to the right channel, there was Lloyd on steel guitar. I wore that 33 1/3 album out playing it so many times to hear that train in a tunnel effect.

Regards, Paul

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 21 Jan 2004 9:12 am

This is what popped into my head, maybe not quite the same thing but similar

"Fugue" :a musical composition in which one or two themes are repeated or imitated by successively entering voices and contrapuntally developed in a continuous interweaving of the voice parts (from Webster).

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 21 Jan 2004 12:17 pm

Actually, in a fugue, an easy way to think of the interweaving of lines would be like having a number of distinct melodies or more simply, melodic phrases, that keep re-occuring. And each time they happen, they could be transposed to start on a different note, or they could timed to be twice as long or they could be backwards or upside down, but that they always have their identity intact.

This is a form that preceded the melody over harmony that we're so familiar with, where a single line is harmonized. From a composition perspective, melody over harmony is verticle thinking whereas counterpoint is more linnear thinking or destination oriented. Both of them have lines and harmony, however in counterpoint the moment to moment harmonies are incidental to the lines and their destinations.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Jan 2004 12:30 pm

Just realized there's an example of this on my CD "Four to the Bar", on the song "Nights in White Satin". In the interlude section in the middle, as the steel finishes its line, the guitar (Mike Ihde) picks up (and harmonizes) the last note and then carries it off into a screaming and wailing guitar solo.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 21 Jan 2004 12:31 pm

Thanks for the explanation, Chas, now I remember. It has been a long time since I took that music appreciation class in college. Now that I think about it, it was a night class, and I was gigging so much back then that I slept through most of the classes. Put on Vivaldi at 10pm, and I’m ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz...

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 21 Jan 2004 12:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the interlude section in the middle, as the steel finishes its line, the guitar (Mike Ihde) picks up (and harmonizes) the last note and then carries it off-jim cohen

Is that the same thing that's happening on Ricky Skaggs "Highway 40 Blues" tele/steel trade off on the break - Or am I thinking of something else?-dave burr<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Cross Fade" is probably the closest I think we're gonna get on this, although I know there's another term for it....
Sorry Guys...I'm not talking about harmonizing the last few notes of a phrase, or like Hiway40, a twinned passage leadin' into the next solo... I'm talking a UNISON note, and TIMBRAL SIMILARITY.

Danny Gatton's "Sky King" from Unfinished Business on NRG records has the best example I can think of...(the version on Cruisin Deuces IS NOT the same mix, it has a different sax solo and ending!!found that out the hard way: I have the original Unfinished Business LP on NRG, Danny's homegrown label. I downloaded the version off Cruisin' Deuces from iTunes site yesterday, and was stunned that while much of it was as I remembered it, the sax solo was different and the "cross faded" notes were not there- it was either a wholly different recording or a different mix... I double checked as soon as I got home, just to reassure myself I wasn't crazy, and yep IT IS different!!)

[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 22 January 2004 at 12:43 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Jan 2004 6:35 pm

Don't know the term (if there is one), so I'll make up my own!

Cascading unisons

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 30 Jan 2004 2:32 pm

Hocketing sure covers it - Here's a great write-up on it...
http://www.salon-digital.de/particles/paradocs/hockets/press/phil/hockets_phil.html

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 30 Jan 2004 2:34 pm

If you don't read past the first paragraph!

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 30 Jan 2004 2:42 pm

This is what I though I had cut out:
http://the-orb.net/encyclop/culture/music/hocket.html

Lotsa French and Latin in there. It appears that hocketing is not necessarily melodic but rhythmic as well.

cross-fade/dissolve/morph all good. But there must be a classic musical term for this?

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 30 Jan 2004 9:17 pm

Dave, I believe what you're referring to is "continuous imitation" (not my terminology).

continuous imitation Renaissance polyphonic style in which the motives move from line to line within the texture, often overlapping one another.