What I Miss

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 14 Jan 2004 1:32 pm

Some time back, b0b started a thread on what we didn't like about New Country. What I miss the most is picking. In the late 40s and early 50's (before my time), soloists were frequently given whole choruses to play. The band was like a jazz band. The singer would sing a chorus; then the fiddle, steel or whatever would do one; the singer another; and then another instrument would do a chorus and so on. Also, during the singer's choruses, the instruments would take turns comping. Lot's of great picking. I miss that, not to mention the great instrumental records of that era. Then this was all reduced to intro, turnaround and outro. I can understand that over time swung eighths can be replaced with straight eighths (though they're not as much fun), but I don't understand what the modern audience has against picking.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 14 Jan 2004 1:57 pm

I miss simplicity, letting a song breathe, and knowing when NOT to play.

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Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 14 Jan 2004 2:12 pm

I miss the same things in current rock & roll. Playing solos, singing harmony, good melodies, all gone

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 14 Jan 2004 3:20 pm

This past Christmas I gave my Dad a box set of Bob Wills & The Texas Playboys. My dad grew up in Oklahoma during the '30s & '40s when the Texas Playboys were the biggest thing in that area, and he would go watch them any time he got a chance to.
We sat there Christmas day listening to those songs and even he said something about how back then they let the musicians play music instead of some singer just yelling at you for three minutes.
On most of those old Bob Will recordings the band would play the whole form of the song, like verse- verse -chorus, then Tommy Duncan would come in and sing verse- verse -chorus, then the band would play the form again, verse- verse -chorus, and take it out. So basically two thirds of the song is instrumental. Then about every third song was an instrumental. So I would guess that the singer in the band was only singing about 20% of the music.
Most all music, not just swing, was like that up till the late forties. The thing that changed it was technology.
Back to The Texas Playboys- They would play at dances, big ones that had hundreds of people there. In the thirties and forties they didn't have much, if anything, for a PA system and singer had to sing loud and hard to be heard. There is no way a singer could sing like all night, four hours a night, five night a week. Even though the band back then were primarily acoustic just try sometime to sing all night long over the drums, piano, string bass, horn section, electric guitar, electric steel, and three fiddles.
Then came technology, THE PA SYSTEM. All of a sudden singers had a microphone they could sing into and be louder than anyone on stage. They found out that they could even sing softer and still be heard. Now the singer could sing on every song all night long and not lose his/her voice. The beginning of the downfall of popular music and rise of the Singer/Frontman!

Bluegrass music is still primarily acoustic and still contains more picking than singing. Most bluegrass songs with vocals will have for example, verse-chorus then fiddle solo, verse-chorus then banjo solo, verse- chorus then etc.etc.. And about 30% of bluegrass songs are instrumentals.

I really think that amplified music has forever changed, and somewhat damaged, the artform of music.
I say we all go unplugged, take that microphone away from the singer, and have fun pickin' again.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 14 Jan 2004 4:41 pm

Western-Swing was always mostly a forum for musicians....a singer was considered to be the least important member of the band. It used to be said that the only reason a western-swing band hired a vocalist was just so the musicians could rest once in awhile.

www.genejones.com

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Jan 2004 4:50 pm

Rock music is still open to instrumental passages. Heck, the screaming guitar solo is part of the definition of rock music. Country music seems to have let the instrumental sections fall by the wayside, though. AJ's "Remember When" is one of a few of exceptions to the rule.

The unfortunate truth is that that country music industry is selling images and lyrics, not music. The music is just a vehicle that a country star uses to tell a story. The notion that country musicians can communicate feelings to an audience has been lost somehow over the years.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 14 Jan 2004 4:55 pm

If singing annoys you, you can always listen to hip hop.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 14 Jan 2004 5:23 pm

If singing annoys you, you can always listen to hip hop.

The only problem with that is lack of music.

Buddy Carter · Post by **Buddy Carter** » 14 Jan 2004 6:12 pm

LOL

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Jan 2004 7:26 pm

Dave, have you had a chance to hear Tommy Morrell and the Timewarp Tophands? They often follow that general formula, of playing the song and soloing instrumentally, then have a "vocal break" in the middle, then back to the instrumentalists to solo some more and take it out. My own group, "Beats Walkin'" also tends to arrange tunes this way (well, I'm the arranger!

) Come visit sometime!

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 14 Jan 2004 8:47 pm

Jim, I have indeed and dig 'em. What I was lamenting was Country Music. Western Swing is still great, thank God. We're lucky to have Tom Morrel, AATW, The Time Jumpers, et al. Country, on the other hand, doesn't make enough use of the great pickers around. Remember Hank's Honky Tonkin'? A major country hit that had 3 solos including Jerry Byrd's.

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 14 Jan 2004 10:02 pm

The reason they did away with the instrumental inserts in the songs was to cut down the length of the recording. In the early years most all the songs were at least 3 minutes long. By todays standards, if a song exceeds 2 minutes it becomes subjective. They need the aditional time to play the commercials. LOL

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 15 Jan 2004 12:58 pm

I also miss the personality in many of today's recordings, you may also call it "personal style". For me that includes vocal styles as well as using a singer's band (or certain key musicians) in the studio (so many artists did that, ET, Haggard, Cash, Ray Price, Buck Owens, Porter Wagoner, Willie and Waylon,...).

For the vocal styles: I doubt that unique voices like Willie Nelson, Dolly Parton, ET, Hank Snow, Skeeter Davis,...would make it big today, looks like the trend goes more towards the perfect "middle of the road" sound...

Walter www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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[This message was edited by Walter Stettner on 15 January 2004 at 12:59 PM.]

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 15 Jan 2004 1:05 pm

Right on, Walter. Can you imagine a voice as "country" as Wanda Jackson's getting on the radio today?

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 15 Jan 2004 1:09 pm

Kenny's laughing but he's exactly right. Put in a solo and the first thing you'll get is a request from the radio stations for a mix without one.

Also, most listeners (the young one's everyone wants) won't listen to a solo. The minute the voice stops, they hit the button.

And b0b, I beg to differ-I'm in touch with a lot of younger "rock" players here, and the screaming guitar solo is dead. No solos. period, it's considered bad form. And I've seen the rooms empty the minute you try to play one. The hot shot guitar slinger is a thing of the past.

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Fulawka D-10 9&5
Fessenden D-10 8&8
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 15 Jan 2004 8:11 pm

Just a question: Have you noticed how the blue grass pickers/singers.....with their accoustic instruments, can always be heard and NEVER block out or walk on, a vocalist?
Everyone, quite often, works around a single microphone. So pleasing to hear and watch.
BIG TIME Pop singers too.....they carry around a little dinky mike, and the twenty to thirty piece orchestra is still playing but no one walks on anyone else's part. Just look at Lawrence Welk AS AN EXAMPLE, only!
Barber Shoppe quartets did likewise....
This is the way musicians in the OLDEN DAYS used to play with the band.....It worked and it was pleasant to listen to. Loud when it came your instrumental turn, then soften back down while the others play or sing. It was the "NORM", kind of an etiquette sort of thing.
Then came the days when the "shouter-or screamer" vocalist litterally started putting the round end of the mike nearly inside their oral cavity in order to scream what they were supposedly trying to sing. The guys with the electrified instruments, just kept on playing loud and louder.
It wasn't the downfall created by quality, top o'the line PA's and mikes, but it was into whose hands it fell.........and, that's what we have today, as I see it from where I sit. There are some that will crack plaster with volume, long after every paying customer has left the joint. It doesn't seem to make sense to me. How about you?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jan 2004 8:34 pm

And b0b, I beg to differ-I'm in touch with a lot of younger "rock" players here, and the screaming guitar solo is dead.

I've bought maybe a dozen rock concert DVDs in the past year, and they all have plenty of guitar solos. Maybe it's because I listen to more mature artists, but these folks are all still playing big venues and packing in the crowds.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 15 Jan 2004 11:37 pm

Here's another change. As i said to one of our younger students last week,
"You see that thin string that you just use as a place to rest your little finger?
I play that one!
If I'd wanted five strings, I'd play the Banjo"
Cheers
Dave

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 16 Jan 2004 12:24 am

Oh, the older artists, yeah. But I've got 3 friends here who are REAL good lead players, and they are in bands catering to the 16 and up crowd-what used to be the Heavy Metal set. And they don't get to solo at all anymore-ever. And one of them plays Red Rocks usually once a year, so they're considered good, and every time my buddy so much as hits a few single notes they're screaming at him to cut it out. I told him he should form another band, but he says they're right, as much as he hates it, the solo is just dead right now. Folks come up to him at shows and tell him what a wonderful player he is and he wonders how they know. Everything is about the beat now. My niece is 17 and has lots of friends in bands as well, so I hear a lot of what bands they listen to, and even though I like some of it, I don't hear where the next Stevie Ray Vaughn is going to come from. Dudes aren't getting a chance to stretch. My niece's generation has no Clapton, Allman, Townsend, Garcia, Walsh, Van Halen, Paige, etc. There's nobody on the scene that has anything even remotely like the kind of swagger Van Halen had when Roth was the front man. They cruised into town, cleaned out all the liquor stores and dealers, burned down a sold out arena, and stole all the women. The acts now come through and play 500 seat halls and everyone goes home early. My niece has never heard anyone play Johnny B Goode but Chuck Berry. There's something wrong with that-there should at least be SOME cats covering that tune. There are no brand-name-gotta-know-this licks from the 90's forward, which I think translates into the remarkable lack of staying power acts exhibit today. Without a guitar stud in the band, they all sound the same.
The guitar band has gone the way of Latin and the Anastazi. Vanished, except for some rapidly decaying relics the tourists trot out to see in the summer.

jeez, I'm even depressing myself. Time to go watch a little Dead at Winterland on the DVD.

JB

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Fulawka D-10 9&5
Fessenden D-10 8&8
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html

[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 16 January 2004 at 12:27 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Jan 2004 2:31 am

If all you hear of rock or country is radio play, then all you will hear is the song delivered and a short solo.

They have the forumla for catching listeners attantion and they think anything else is dead air.

Blame that all on short attention spans and too many formats hungary for listeners and advertizing $'s.

There won't be anymore Layla's or Allman Bros, on the radio, or bob Wills etc.

I miss good melodic solos, alternate section or codas, and improvising fire.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 January 2004 at 02:32 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 16 Jan 2004 5:04 am

Even with their emphasis on instrumental solo's, Bob Wills always "softened" the music when the vocalist did get to sing.....Ever notice on Wills records (and other western swing groups as well) how the band plays 4/4 during the instrumental rides, but changes to 2/4 during the vocals?

www.genejones.com

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 16 Jan 2004 6:51 am

JB's right. Guitar solos are becoming a thing of the past. Gotta look at current pop/rock. At most ya get a 4 bar transitional section, maybe a guitar riff, maybe a keys riff. Mostly though, those sections are just the chord prog played louder, with more distortion. Listen to bands like Cold Play, Nickelback, Tonic, 3 Doors Down. No solos.

Best chance to find instrumental passages is to listen to the jam bands. Dave Matthews, Phish, stuff along those lines. But those passages are part of what defines that genre.

Even the guys who are considered the hot young guitar slingers are avoiding the solo - at least in the studio. Listen to John Mayer. No extended solos.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 16 Jan 2004 8:01 am

The funny thing to me is watching David Letterman. Most of the bands he has on have extremely dummed down players. Sometimes I think he has them on, on purpose because their playing is so infantile. Just slamming their instruments away with NO dynamics or arrangements. The only time you ever see compitent players on is when you have some black jazz players or white country/swing acts like Lyle Lovit(?). It can be hysterically funny watching. Guitars down to the knees.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 16 Jan 2004 9:28 am

I'm playing bass in a "country" band, but the singer is sooooo talented and the country market sucks so badly around here that we have to cover some alternative tunes to get work. So, last night I just listened to a bunch of alternative tunes and guess what, not one of them have a guitar solo!!!! But, one tune did have a banjo! I'm sure b0b will be pleased.

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Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 16 Jan 2004 9:53 am

I think it's because today's average music consument ( the 16+ generation) is NOT INTERESTED in music, they are interested in a certain lifestyle, whatever it takes to be "cool" will be a winner, but not the music and the instrumental background.

Listen to those young people, what is the reason they go to a concert, it's the beat or because the singer is so cool, or...but not because of the band, the players etc.

I watched an interesting TV documentary on the success of those new "gothic" acts like Marilyn Manson etc. and I was really shocked listening to some of these kids and their statements about their "idol", I also had the pleasure of watching a little bit of the stage show (is that really music? - I'm sorry but if somebody says yes, I totally disagree!!!) and I was even more shocked to read the overwhelmingly positive record reviews these acts get, even in regular music magazines that deal with all kinds of music. Their interpretation of what is behind this music, what the writer thought is so incredily stupid that it's almost funny to read.

I agree that the traditional form of music, as we know it (Country or classic Rock), with a song, vocals and instrumental skills (no matter if you talk about an intro, a solo or filling behind a vocal) is no longer the fashion, it seems to be a thing of the past!

Walter
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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