How to copyright a song?

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 21 Dec 2003 8:19 am

Anyone now the best procedure? Thanks in advance.

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 21 Dec 2003 9:16 am

Stephen,

Have a look here:
http://www.copyright.gov/

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Dec 2003 9:52 am

Bill has provided the absolute proper link..

Use the correct form, send them $30..and wait about 6 months, maybe longer.

I personally have been using the SR form which requires that you send in a copy of the song on a CD or cassette along with the form. It's that easy.

1 Song per form, 1 Song per $30 fee..

Good luck.
T[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 December 2003 at 09:53 AM.]

erik · Post by **erik** » 21 Dec 2003 10:40 am

Stephen, as you'll learn from the web site link posted above a song is copyrighted as soon as it is fixed in a tangible form. When you follow the procedure at the Library Of Congress you are only registering it. Form SR is usually used when you are protecting the recording itself in addition to the music & lyrics (i.e. when the song is published). If you're just sending in a demo to register music & lyrics you can use form PA. At least that's the way it used to be. I would check first.

Here is what the LOC says: http://www.copyright.gov/register/sr-choose.html [This message was edited by erik on 21 December 2003 at 10:46 AM.]

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 21 Dec 2003 10:42 am

Thanks guys. Tony it appears that the form you are using copyrights the performance and not the song itself, is that accurate? Sorry, I posted this response before I had seen Erik's post.[This message was edited by Stephen Gregory on 21 December 2003 at 10:44 AM.]

erik · Post by **erik** » 21 Dec 2003 10:52 am

Stephen, let me correct: For form SR it doesn't matter if the recorded work is published or unpublished. Also, if you have more than one song to register you can do so as a collection for one fee provided you alone are the author of all of them. Now, I'm not sure if you can do this with SR or only PA. Read that link.

Stephen, are you a skier up there in Lake Placid?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Dec 2003 2:03 pm

According to the Instructions..

Form PA is used only to register the unpublished underlying work ( composition) along with a copy fo the work ( recording)

Form SR can be used in 1 of 2 ways..

1)To register an unpublished underlying work and the sound recording provided that the author is a party to both..

2)To register just the sound recording of a previously published work with the authors permission.

At least this is the way I read it and understand it..perhaps I am wrong..I hope not..

The SR Form is pretty detailed in Q and A on authorship..in fact it's almost identicle to Form PA..go figure..

Our Govt at work...

By the way I just received back my first copyright submission from April 2003..It is date stamped June 2003..

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 21 Dec 2003 3:22 pm

A song is copyrighted from the moment the pencil leaves the paper you wrote it on.

What you folks are doing is reistering your song with the copyright office which gives you the date it was created and proof that you own it.

Bob

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Dec 2003 6:06 pm

Bob, I suppose one could make that case..but I don't believe that is the complete story.

There is no Copyright once you put the pen down. The Copyright is a legal paperwork trail back to the original writer..or worse, the one one who claims ownership regardless of whether they wrote the song or not. In other words, the first one to mail the form in with the $30 fee.

The question posed here concerns how to get the registered copyright.

If someone copyrights your song before you do..good luck..You can claim ownership all you want but Judge Judy is going to tell you that you don't own the copyright, which implies "the right to make copies". She will tell you " You may be the writer but you don't own the copyright"..Then she will say something like " How did you let that happen..you should know better than that"..

But this is old stuff ..we all know this story. This is one of the oldest music lessons known to mankind.

If you write a song and you have intentions of selling or using it for public performance and have fear that someone may steal it from you..then record it and make millions..then don't put the pen down until you fill out Form PA , Form SR ,a $30 check and an envelope with a stamp on it.

Being the author and owning copyright are two different things .

T

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 21 Dec 2003 11:07 pm

There is another alternative. This is called the "poor man's" copyright.

Simply tape record yourself singing the song. Put it in an envelope, and mail it to yourself.

The song is then legaly yours, from the day the federal government processes the envelope it is in.

If there is ever a legal dispute over the song, simply bring the envelope to court, open it, and play the tape.

Alvin Sydnor · Post by **Alvin Sydnor** » 22 Dec 2003 8:32 am

I have been a freelance writer for more than 30 years. Bob Carlson is correct. What ever you write it's copyrighted the moment it's complete. The real problem starts when you want to do somthing with what you have written. What's important is that you need to prove that it's your work and the best and least expensive is to file form SR. I sell out-right my work where the buyer retains the copyright and my name as the author goes along with the copyrighted material. This means I have given up the ability to copy or use this material without the copyright owners approval. It is very difficult to sell your material since those buying are calling the shots since they are investing a lot in publishing and marketing the material. BE CAREFUL WITH WHO YOU DEAL WITH WHEN TRYING TO MARKET YOUR MATERIAL.
If you want to promote and make money with your material (song) be prepared to spend a lot of money.
I am quite sure the music industry works the same way as I have been dealing with my work.
Keep on pikin
Alvin

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 22 Dec 2003 9:10 am

Tony, I said what you folks are doing is registering your song with the Copyright Office which gives you the "date" it was created and "proof" that you own it.

Isn't that what you just said?

As for when a song is copyrighted...it stated the same thing on the web site Erik posted but I can't get it to open now.

Got to tell a story about copyright. Can't remember the name of the movie that had "Dueling Banjo's" in it, but Arthur "Guitar Boogie" Smith composed it and had been playing it for years and everyone in Nashville knew it was his song.

He contacted the proper people and informed them they had used his song and he wanted some green or he was going to sue them. They told him to go ahead...that he didn't have enough money or time. Said they would drag that out in court for twenty years.

Well Arthur didn't have any money, but he had a LOT of friends in Nashville that did. A few of them got togather, backed Arthur, and sued. It took a few years but they won.

Bob

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 22 Dec 2003 9:29 am

It was Bill Llewellyn's web site that will show you what Alvin and myself are saying about when a song is copyrighted.

Click on FAQ. Click on copyright in general and go down to number four and five.

Erik, i'm sorry if I stepped on your toes. I didn't feel your's was detailed enough.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlson on 22 December 2003 at 09:43 AM.]

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 22 Dec 2003 10:35 am

I agree w/ Bob C. and Alvin S. except I'm not sure about one thing Bod said -- I'm thinking that registration doesn't really give you a date the work was created, it just gives you the date the work was registered. If somebody has proof that the work was created before the date it was registered, that proof will be given appropriate weight and that can be very important, for example in a case where two people are claiming copyright ownership in the same work.

I agree that the creator of any work, whether it's a song, a book, a painting, or whatever, automatically owns a copyright in the work as soon as that work is created. In other words, registration with the Copyright Office has no bearing on whether a copyright in the work exists. However, the copyright date is important and the sooner a work is copyrighted, generally the better.

Registration of the work with the Copyright Office does several things, among which are: helping to provide proof of ownership of the copyright, and providing for statutory damages for copyright infringement in the event that infringement is found to have occurred.

This latter provision of copyright law is actually a lot more important than it sounds. Statutory damages are generally a lot more than what you could get if you had not registered your work. However, statutory damages are affected by the date of the copyright registration.[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 22 December 2003 at 10:51 AM.]

Alvin Sydnor · Post by **Alvin Sydnor** » 22 Dec 2003 11:22 am

Tom O hit the nail on its head. Before you start distributing your material (printed, recorded or played live)make sure you have received your confermation of your copyright. There are thieves everywhere. Even with your copyright date in hand be extra careful with who you deal with.
Keep on pikin
Alvin

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Dec 2003 11:51 am

I think we are all saying the same thing..

Maybe some Symantics going on here..and I don't mean Security software..

I don't see that the copyright is done as soon as you write a song..I see it differently but it doesn't matter..

I understand the copyright to be a mechanical device after you have written the song or work.

Websters defines copyright as "securing the rights"..thats kinda how I see it.

But it doesn't matter, I think we all agree that there is a Form or 2 we should use to prevent situations like mentioned above.

If you write a tune or 2..go ahead and secure your ownership by filling out the forms..it really doesn't matter what our implied pre-form understanding is..the form eliminates all doubt.

You buy a car and hand over all the cash..but the State doesn't believe you own it until you produce a bill of sale..The document is required.

Glad the story above ended the correct way..I suspect many didn't have such a good ending.

t

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 22 Dec 2003 3:41 pm

Tony, I don't think you went to the Copyright web site Bill Llewellyn posted. If you will go there, click on FAQ, then Copyright In General and read sections Four, Five and Six you will see that you and I are both right.

And Mr. Olson (forgot your first name) you are also right in that registering will give you the date it was registered which is better than telling some court...I wrote it in June of 94.

Bob

erik · Post by **erik** » 23 Dec 2003 2:32 am

As a side note: When I post a tune at soundclick.com it has a date it was uploaded available in my account. It also dates a modification. This is why I will not replace or modify a tune. If I come up with a better version I'll just add the new version to my account and label it as such. There is no limit to uploads at soundclick.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 23 Dec 2003 5:37 am

Bob thanks..Yes we may be both right..but it appears you are more right than I..!

Erik..posting a soundfile out there in NET land gives you proof of when you made a recording..but it may not offer proof that you wrote it..and own it..
just a thought..good idea though...

T

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 23 Dec 2003 9:53 am

However, if nobody else can provide any proof of authorship that pre-dates Erik's posting, then Erik wins any argument about who wrote the song.

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 23 Dec 2003 12:32 pm

In Arthur Smiths lawsuit over "Dueling Bango's" it was people testifying they had heard him playing that song years before that movie came out that won the case for him.

But it is best to put Copyrighted and the year for the USA and "All Rights Reserved" for the rest of the world on every audio and written copy of it. After all, you are the only person who has the right to copy it.

Bob

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 24 Dec 2003 10:50 am

Here's the way that I understand it.

Your name is Paul McCartney. You write a song called "Yesterday". You record it and file the SR form. You now own the rights to a) the song itself, AND b) your recording of it.

Frank Sinatra comes along and does a recording of it. He files form PA. He owns the rights to his recording of it, but Paul still owns the song and his own recording.

Let's assume that Paul really didn't write "Yesterday". I actually wrote the song, snuck backstage in 1965, hung out with the Beatles, played it for Paul, he liked it, taped it, wrote it down and copyrighted it himself. I never did the paperwork. What do I own? In the eyes of God, the song. In the eyes of the court, nothing. I did not do the paperwork and can prove nothing.

But let's say that I'm a sneaky little guy. I never did write a song in my life. Ten years before "Yesterday" hit the air waves I went to the post office and mailed myself a registered, dated, unsealed and empty envelope and have kept it squirreled away until just the right moment. Now is when I spring into action. I record the song off of the radio, take a copy of the lyrics and music and a tape of me doing it, put them inside my empty dated envelope and seal it. I'm the writer!!!! Paul stole it from me!!!! Uh-huh. Who is the court going to believe? A name artist with all of the proper forms filled out and certified by the US government copyright office, presented by the backing of an entire legal team from the record company, or some nobody with a sealed envelope? The envelope method will not hold up in court. It's cheap, my mother told me that method 40 years ago, it sounded good at the time, but Mom was wrong. It's no good.

Another question: When Frank records a version of Pauls' song, does he have to get Pauls' permission to do it? Or does he just have to see that Paul gets his share of the writers royalties?

And if you record a song that is commonly heard (say, a Christmas carol) and need the owners' permission before releasing it, just how do you find out who really owns it? I have been to ASCAP, BMI and Harry Fox and it's a maze. Who exactly and specifically owns the rights to the song Jingle Bells? Who exactly and specifically owns the rights to the song Okie from Muskogee?

------------------
Artie McEwan

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 24 Dec 2003 12:55 pm

Artie,

The post office will not process an empty, unsealed envelope. The "poormans" copyright only works if you don't open the envelope, breaking the seal means it is void, which means the only thing that can possibly be in the unsealed, mailed envelope is whatever you mailed in it the day you mailed it(in this case, either sheet music or a recording of your song).

That is one of the reasons why the post office dates the package, to prevent the many different kinds of mail fraud.

It is legally just as effective as a "proper" copyright, and songwriters used this proceedure for years(especially in the old days of country music, before we had "full time" songwriters like Harlan Howard and B./F. Bryant). It is better to establish your own publishing company with ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC, but the "mail" technique is a real option. The main downside is that you have a bunch of envelopes sitting around your house that you can't open for the rest of your life.

If you want to be a "hotshot" Nashville songwriter, you should start your own publishing company, or sign a deal with one that won't d!*k you out of your money, but if you want to write songs for fun and play them with your local band, this is another option.

In answer to,"Does Frank have to ask Paul before he records it?"

The writer of the song has the first option on releasing it. So if the Beatles had not yet released "Yesterday", and Sinatra wanted to record it, he would have to seek permission from Lennon/McCartney's publishing company, Northern Songs.

But after a song has been done once, it is anyone's to cover. So if you wanted to record "I Wanna Hold Your Hand", you could. If you wanted to record some song you heard John playing backstage in 1963 that the Beatles never released, you would(how strange is this?) have to seek permission from Michael Jackson, who owns the Northern Songs catalog, and the rights to "work" it.

So when "Revolution" was in that Nike commercial a few years back, Paul or Yoko had no say about that, even though it was a Lennon/McCartney composition. That was Michael "working" the catalog he owned.

Sad but true,

Chris Scruggs[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 24 December 2003 at 01:15 PM.]

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 24 Dec 2003 1:27 pm

So if I want to record "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" do I need to get permission first?

I have heard the answer is yes, and you need to get a mechanical license or a compulsory license or something.

Thanks in advance.

------------------
Artie McEwan

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 24 Dec 2003 1:59 pm

Yes, you need "permission", but it is really just a liscensing issue. If you want to record "I Wanna Hold Your Hand", you can. Of course, I'm sure it's a little of a hastle with a powerful catalog like the Beatles songbook, but Lloyd Green, Pete Drake, and Bela Fleck are a few of the "not top 40" artists that have recorded Beatles songs in the past, so it ain't hard.

However, if a song has not been released by the songwriter, it needs their OK. This is so if a songwriter wants to record a song himself, Alan Jackson can't go record it before the writer has a shot at it. And if you want Alan Jackson to cut it and have a huge hit, Joe Shmoe can't cut it first and ruin that chance.

One more thing on the "legal team vs the guy with the envelope" topic. If you didn't write the song, they're gonna get you. If you DID write the song, AND filed forms with your publishing company, they can still screw youe @$$ to the wall.

Why? You already answered that. They have a team of salary lawyers who screw people like you and me everyday. A friend of mine cowrote a song that was on a particular name artist's record. The record company owed my friend a sum of around $35,000. They wouldn't pay, because they said they had a "controlled composition clause" in the artists contract. Basically, that means they don't have to pay the artist for songs they wrote on their album, and they claimed that this also applied to cowriters. That was illegal, since my friend who cowrote the song did not have a recording contract with that specific recording company, the "controlled composition clause" had no effect.

When my friends lawyer contacted the record label about the owed royalties, they literally said,"Sue us". They weren't kidding, either. It would of cost the label nothing to have their salary lawyers paperwork my friend(over a period of years) to the point where their legal fees would of EXCEEDED the $35,000 that they owed them in the first place.

The "Dualing Banjo's" story is a success story of somebody who beat the system, and got what they deserved. But most of the time, story's like the above show why the record company "mafia" are so rich, and us Nashville songwriters are so poor. Things have gotten extremely bad in the last 15 years. They will make a tax write off out of nickel and diming you to death.

The best way around that for professional songwriters is to be affiliated with a large publishing company who has their own lawyers and what not. But then, they own the songs you write for them for life plus 75 years. And the money you make for them is not a true "paycheck", but a loan against future royalties. So if you make $15,000 dollars a year writing for a publishing company and are not lucky enough to get a cut, that becomes $15,000 you owe back to them. Oh yeah, and they don't pay up lots of times, too.

And as far as getting "cuts" in this business anymore, it's super easy. All you have to do is have lunch with a big name producer and slip him a brown paper bag under the table to the sum of $30,000. That's your life savings, and his tax free trip to Jamaica.

This is largely responsible for the "quality" of country radio today. All the guys who couldn't make it in LA got sent out here to the "sticks", and started pulling their Hollywood crap here in Nashville. The good ole days of Billy Sherrill and Chet Adkins lookin out for good songs are gone. It is now all about favors, money, and power.

I know this has turned into a rant about Nashville, and this isn't exactly what this topic is about, but I just thought I'd shed some light as to how much power a songwriter really has in this world, it's the same in every music town.

Chris Scruggs

Edited to answer "I wanna hold you hand" query.
[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 24 December 2003 at 02:02 PM.][This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 24 December 2003 at 02:41 PM.]