Why are shows so darn loud!?

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Nov 2003 7:53 am

eh?

Oh, and let's not forget Obnoxiously BRIGHT STAGE LIGHTING..

I got caught in it at a local show, and it melted one of my earplugs..

Add to that the Earth's spinning slowly and haplessly into the sun, and people REALLY have something to complain about..

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 November 2003 at 07:54 AM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 24 Nov 2003 9:40 am

I never understood the complaint that people had that they can't sit and talk over the bands volume. I have even heard these complaints when the band was not very loud at all. A nightclub that has a band is for dancing and listening to music. Want to talk, go to a restaraunt, bar with no music, or a coffee shop. But on the other hand, the volume needs to be under control and you should be able to ask someone to dance and them be able to hear you, obviously raising your voice to do it. If you meet someone at a club and want to converse, go outside for a few minutes, come back in and drink and dance, go back outside etc....Afterwards go to breakfast with them and talk your heads off.

I hate clubs where the band is real quiet. Like I said earlier, I like to feel the music as well as hear it. But when the volume reaches the level of ear pain (or having to wear earplugs) and you can't even scream to someone and have them hear you, then it is too loud.

I also believe that loudness is a subject similar to tone. Everyone has a different opinion of what is right.

Bill Ferguson · Post by **Bill Ferguson** » 24 Nov 2003 3:00 pm

Being a steel player and a sound man, I can see both sides.

Pete Burak:
"If you want to see a guy really flip... really go nuts!... go up behind a sound man at a show, and pull the ear plugs out of his ears!"
I think you have been to enough shows where I mix sound to know that I do not wear earplugs and I keep the level to what I feel is comfortable. In all my years of mixing sound, I have had one person (take that back, 2) say it was too loud. I asked the one person where he was sitting, and yep, you guessed it, right in front of the mains.

I have to agree with Jeff Newman concerning this subject. The people in the back of the room paid to get in too, so it has to be loud enough to get there.

Also I DO NOT use sub-woofers. I don't believe you need them unless it is a BASS concert.

I also agree that if you are going to a concert and/or dance club with live band, you should not expect to be able to carry on a normal conversation within the same room. If you want LIVE music, volume is something you have to deal with.

And yes, the sound should be the best right at the sound booth, which should be about 80' in front of the stage.

Bill

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 24 Nov 2003 3:10 pm

When friends of mine come to town,I make it a point to take them to see "The Time Jumpers",to show them just what real pros should sound like. This is a NINE piece Western Swing band. They play,what is known as "studio level". There are times when,if you're speaking in a "normal" tone of voice,you're LOUDER than the band is playing!! Although the Station Inn sells beer,this is not your "run-of-the-mill honky tonk". Even though they've enlarged the place to accomodate dancers,NO ONE dances! They're ALL listening! This is also why they get clientele like Vince Gill,Gail Davies, Suzy Bogguss,etc,etc. They DON'T blow the wax outta your ears!!

------------------
<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>

[This message was edited by Smiley Roberts on 24 November 2003 at 03:13 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 Nov 2003 7:58 pm

Exactly right, Smiley - The Time Jumpers demonstrate how it should be done.

I was there three weeks ago and I, too, took some friends from England for the very same reason - they just loved it.

It's interesting to note that Ranger Doug's unamplified arch-top Stromberg cuts through the mix above John Hughey's steel and Andy Reiss' guitar quite adequately.

Lest anyone discounts this example because it's a relatively small venue, then I'd venture to cite Alison Kruass & Union Station - they translate the same dynamic perfection to the larger rooms. It can be done.....

------------------
Roger Rettig

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 24 Nov 2003 8:21 pm

What the heck are those numbers on that volume knob for if you can't turn it up!!

I paid $600 for 300 Watts and you only want me to use 10 ? That won't even shake the dust off my 15 in. Black Widow cone!!

I'll turn it down when the drummer starts using brushes!

Terry

It's all Elvis' fault.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Nov 2003 9:46 pm

From the Famous Spinal Tap Interview.

Nigel: "All the numbers go to 11..."

Director Marty Dibergi: "I see, and most amps go up to 10. Does that mean it's louder?"

Nigel: "Well, it's one louder, isn't it? You see, most blokes will be playing at 10...you're on 10 on your guitar. Where can you go from there?...Nowhere, exactly. So when we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?"

Marty: "Put it to 11."

Nigel: "Exactly. One louder."

Marty: "Why don't just make 10 louder and make 10 the top number and make that a little louder?"

Nigel (chewing gum, pauses while he considers the question, then states confidently): "These go to 11."

Andres Segovia had an interesting way of dealing with "it". He'd stop playing until whoever it was "making the commotion" was done, and then he'd start the piece all over again.

I saw him play a concert hall acoustically in the 60s. We all kept silent.. He played greatly, he was great.

EJL

Martin Abend · Post by **Martin Abend** » 25 Nov 2003 8:05 am

tonight I'm at a MOTÖRHEAD-concert. It's the first time I bought foam earplugs...

I guess I can't complain if it's to loud...

Martin

------------------
martin abend Pedal-Steel in Germany
s-10 sierra crown gearless 3 x4 | Regal RD45 | fender hotrod deluxe

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 25 Nov 2003 12:02 pm

I wish more soundmen could mix at levels like Bill Ferguson does. Good balance and low fatigue, especially for an all day event. I think he hit on something very key with regards to the use of loud subwoofers. I once had the great pleasure of hanging out with the great Dan Healy and talking "shop" for a couple of hours. He is famous for being one of the true pioneers of live sound reinforcement. His work with the Grateful Dead has exposed many to his genius. If you've ever seen a Grateful Dead show with Dan at the helm, you know what a concert should sound like. Even if the band was off, and they were sometimes, the sound was spectacular. Never too loud but clear as a bell and as full and punchy as you'd ever want. Your ears didn't ring after the show either. Dan stressed to me the theory of how and why some concerts get so loud. This was 15 years ago so I dont remember in perfect detail but it had a lot to do with abusing subwoofers and how the ear responds to high sound pressure levels at low frequencies.

All it takes is to make the low frequencies of the kick drum too loud and suddenly you've loaded down the eardrum with pressure. Once the eardrum senses this pressure, you need to fight thru it with loudness everywhere else. Hi-passing just about everything except bass guitar at or around 100 Hz leaves the low-frequency sound pressure nice and low. This makes it much easier for the ear to hear all the "music" clearly at far lower levels. There was NO mud in Dan's mixes and you could very clearly make out every instrument and voice, even when they brought the dynamic level way down. Clean and clear with no "junk in the trunk" or bass mud. Pretty much the only instrument making energy down low was the bass guitar and a little kick drum.

You'll go to even a country concert these days and the kick is just pounding and pounding and your gut can feel it. It's exhausting to be subjected to the tens of thousands of downbeats all night. Then the snare drum has to be brightened to cut thru the mud. Then the vocals have to be super hard and hot sounding to cut thru the loud rhythm section. Then the guitars have to cut thru all that, and so on. Pretty much a vicious cycle that could have been avoided if the subs weren't abused. What's ironic is that the Dead shows were not that loud but they sounded clearer and louder than loud shows. They also had more impact in the rhythm and beat than loud shows. I've never seen so many people dance so hard and they weren't being pummelled by the loudness.

So, if more soundmen understood how the ear loads down from low frequencies, they'd probably get cleaner more musical mixes that people would actually enjoy. Low end theory is where it all starts.

------------------
Brad Sarno
Blue Jade Audio Mastering
St. Louis
http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno/

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 25 Nov 2003 12:53 pm

I hate it when the music is so loud you can't think strait.The problem is one player trys to out do the other and the louder a lead player plays the louder another player wil play. They think it is a contest instead of a nice smooth playing band.
Sam White

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 25 Nov 2003 1:03 pm

And another note on the low end theory as it applies to loudness. On stage is another issue. I've noticed that when a drummer has his kick drum in his own monitor too loud, that he will instantly play way too loud. Once a drummer is hitting hard, everyone else has to be loud to hear themselves. The bass player will try to compete with the kick drum subs. If the bass guitar and the bassy instruments AREN'T too loud on stage and in the monitors, then everyone else will naturally play quieter. Even if the lead guitar player (or steel player) has too much bass in his tone, then everyone else will find themselves competing. If the lows are tamed on stage, then it's pretty obvious to a player when they're too loud. When you're trying to hear thru the low mud, you'll play too loud.

Brad Sarno

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 25 Nov 2003 7:28 pm

Charles: It is not a problem when an instrumentalist pushes her or his amp. It's a problem when the soundman pushes the PA system. If that's what you were saying, then I agree with you. However, before I agree with you that Brad Paisley "ain't no country player," I'm going to need some clarification on what a "country player" is.

I believe in a difference between loud and unhealthily loud. For someone who doesn't, here's a tip: don't stare at the sun unless you want to deaf and blind.

I plan on hearing my grandchildren's squeals of delight. That's better music than anything you'll ever find in any venue, anywhere.

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 26 Nov 2003 6:03 am

I don't have any problem wearing earplugs when I'm in the audience, but I just cannot use them onstage. I want to, but it really alters everything so much that I can't get a sense of the sound. Maybe I need to bite the bullet and invest in the musician's earplugs.

Thing that always strikes me as funny is that many of the musicians who wear earplugs on stage end up just setting their volume louder to make up for the decrease in sound from the earplugs. Sorta like the soundman who wears earplugs, and then pulls the mains up the ear-splitting levels.

But all things considered, I like the volume loud enough to feel. There are painful levels beyond that point, but being able to feel the bass guitar and kick drum in my chest is great. I hear it's not so good for your body tho'.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 26 Nov 2003 9:44 am

Bill,
If you go back to my ISGC comments from earlier this year, you will see where I thanked you for the great sound, and my comment that "I didn't even need my earplugs!".
Thanks again!!!
Now Texas 2 years ago, when they had that new soundsystem... my ears are still ringing.
I always have my earplugs handy at any convention for when I think it is too loud... like in the Fulawka room sometimes, or for when I know I am too close to the speakers. I still seem to get caught with an occassional "ear dart" though.
I went to a Stir Fried concert while in St.Louis a few years back (to see Buddy Cage mainly), and that was an example of way too loud, with the soundman wearing foam earplugs.
I've seen the soundman with earplugs thing here too, in two local clubs with house sound systems and house soundmen.
The Dead were always crystal clear.

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 26 Nov 2003 11:29 am

Notice that nobody flamed Carl, because he is almost 100% right. Loud is one thing, way too loud is another. It's a losing battle, alas, but he's right.

It does seem to be true that people who aren't there to actually listen to music (most of them , in a bar or club scene) aren't comfortable unless the music is way too loud. And I've noticed that they won't dance unless it's too loud. It does have something to do with feeling protected by the wall of sound, I think.

I went to a drum concert in a church last week and everything was miked to near the pain threshold.

And finally, Ginger Baker, not famous for being shy or quiet either in his drumming or personally, said it when he was playing with Eric Clapton and Jack Bruce (I edit a little): "when you have to mike the drums, you're too loud. I was miked with Cream, but that's because the other two expletives were too expletiving loud!"

Yay, Ginger.
[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 26 November 2003 at 11:30 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 26 Nov 2003 1:41 pm

Wearing earplugs to listen to music? Has the absurdity of this struck anyone else out there?

RR

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 26 Nov 2003 5:09 pm

Have any of you guys measured the loudness? I got a cheap sound pressure level meter at Fry's but it pinned at only 120 dB so I don't know how loud Chris Gaffney's band really is.

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 27 Nov 2003 5:51 pm

Notice that nobody flamed Carl, because he is almost 100% right. Loud is one thing, way too loud is another. It's a losing battle, alas, but he's right.

Nobody flamed Carl because forum members are being polite - not because Carl is 100% right. Actually Carl is only about 20% right! Carl, you lost me with the following:

And I have never done it again, nor will I ever be subjected to it again. I was in StLouis this year, but I never once went into that hall. I had no intentions of going in it. I knew before I ever went in there what I would NOT hear. And that was any semblance of music played at a decent level. So I simply stayed outside in the Excel booth.

I was at the St. Louis convention and the band was soooo NOT LOUD. You missed out on some fantastic playing, Carl!

Terry

PS It's really not Elvis' fault. It all began with Eve. But whose keeping score anyway?!

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 27 Nov 2003 7:57 pm

My wife always said that it was the wives and girl-friends sitting at the "musicians table" that were too loud.

They would listen rapturously with glistening eyes while the star was singing, and then while me or one of the other musicians took our solo everyone would talk louder than the music, furiously trying to catch up on all the gossip before the singer came back!

Maybe that's why some of us play too loud...we are just trying desperately to be noticed!

www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 28 November 2003 at 09:02 AM.]

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 27 Nov 2003 8:09 pm

Just my two cents. The Dead's sound system was a marvel. Healy knows his stuff. I have found that a lot of bands and sound men either don't know or don't want to know the difference between small/large venues, or indoor/outdoor shows. They are not the same and shouldn't be handled the same way.

I have found that in smaller clubs at least, it's best to NOT mic the drums, then work the guitar and vocal volumes around that. If the drums are too loud, everything else will be too. Even then, one on the kick and two hanging overhead is about all I have ever used or though necessary.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 27 Nov 2003 8:55 pm

The main reason for excessive sound level is because the electric bass and drummer are trying to play lead instead of providing beat and keeping time.

Talk to some of these nitwits. You'll usually find that their I.Q. is inversely proportional to the decibel level.

Rick

Martin Abend · Post by **Martin Abend** » 27 Nov 2003 11:01 pm

Hey Rick-Dude,

uuuhmm, where can I get some of that "decibel"-stuff?

Martin, drummer

------------------
martin abend Pedal-Steel in Germany
s-10 sierra crown gearless 3 x4 | Regal RD45 | fender hotrod deluxe

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Nov 2003 8:07 am

......obviously not!

RR

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 28 Nov 2003 6:08 pm

uuuhmm, where can I get some of that "decibel"-stuff?

Martin, just got back to the computer and wasn't expecting a reply:
Three mikes, one at the bass drum, one at the snare, and one at the tom-tom should give you all the "decibel-stuff" you want.

I've seen (heard) it; no kidding.

I used to be a nitwit myself. I used to drive my parents insane practicing at home with my loud volume on my steel guitar, in my early teens. Most of the communication with my parents from about 13 years old to 19 was, "Ricky, turn that thing down".

I just about drove them out of their home.

But, playing out with a group, I've always had consideration for the singer and the other band members.

Change of mood, in the same tune, adds a lot to the presentation of any song or tune. I've heard drummers who hit cymbal, bass drum, and sticks on the snare, on every beat of the tune, while backing the singer. To me, this is like a steeler playing the melody without cease, while the singer is singing, instead of fills and runs.

When the drummer does a solo, be as loud as you want. At certain emphasis points in a song more intensity may be in good taste. But, this __ electric bass and drummer competing with the singer and lead instruments for the lead is in bad taste. It's as if they aren't even listening to themselves play, or thinking about what they are doing, and are not thinking about the presentation as a "whole". And, I hear a lot of it.

Rick

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 29 Nov 2003 9:09 am

I think loudness is a bit of a power trip. Kinda like a sports car. Push it a little and you get this big, boosted response. That can be pretty thrilling for many.

I started wearing earplugs in a band I was in during college. They were wayloud. I just used swimming earplugs from a local drug store because that was all that was available. They seemed to work great to lessen sound, and I just adjusted to the change in tonality they produced. That was MUCH better than the ringing ears.

I have one of those SPL dB meters from Radio Shack. It comes with a list showing sound intensities like the one on this page. I know that OSHA requires hearing protection for workers exposed to 85dB or above on a continuous basis. I know that when I'm listening to a piece of music I really like, I tend to run the sound to 85-90dB (I measured it). But that's for short periods. Live bands and even movie theaters tend to be quite a bit louder than that.

------------------
Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?