Public Domain

Bruce Hamilton · Post by **Bruce Hamilton** » 26 Jul 2003 5:17 pm

I'm just curious but what is the law or etiquette with regards to recording songs for a steel cd. Do you have to contact the writer of the song other than songs that come under public domain, and ask for permission to use their song? Everything has become so convoluted in this area it seems the rules have gone out the window.

Post by **b0b** » 26 Jul 2003 8:21 pm

Moved to the 'Music' section of the Forum.

The Harry Fox Agency handles licensing of songs for CDs. You can pay all of the songwriter royalties through them. You only need to contact the publisher directly if the song has never been recorded before.

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Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Jul 2003 3:35 am

This is a very controversial area.A subject that is not touched upon all that often.

The correct ..legal..thing to do is to acquire a mechanical license for each song on a CD or tape that you plan to distribute.

Note I didn't say sell.

The mechanical license is for distributing the music, that means give away or sell or whatever...

The starting fee per song is $40 plus a $2 fee to make a minimum of 500 pieces and up to 2500.

I pretty much don't know how or why they arrived at the 500 minimum but it must be related to pressing.

What happens if you purchase a license and only make 1 ? Seems nuts to me ....

Do the mechanical license police come to your house and force you to make 499 more ?

IF you get a drivers license, you don't have to drive..do ya ?

The above link in b0bs post to the Harry Fox agency covers it all.

It takes a credit card and about 30 seconds to get a mechanical license for a tune.

good luck

tp

erik · Post by **erik** » 27 Jul 2003 6:37 am

Isn't the law different if you only make a instrumental?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Jul 2003 8:49 am

I don't think there is any difference between Instrumentals or vocals..The song was still written by the same writer and is still published under the same publishers contracts.

When you send in a song for copyright you now just send a tape or CD which is obviously the music and lyric..

I suppose you could change a little bit of the melody in an instrumental and change the name and take your chances, but in the end..the members of Metallica will find you and sue you ..even if it's not there song...

It all gets down to if the owner of the song or the publisher decides to persue the legal rights to the song in question..

Think of it this way..you write a million dollar song with lyrics...

Then I release it as an Instrumental version
without permission..maybe even change the name , but it is the same song.. and it too sells a million...do you want your money ?

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 July 2003 at 09:49 AM.]

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 27 Jul 2003 1:40 pm

I'm confused. How is it that the Harry Fox agency collects the same fee for any song I wish to record and distribute? I would think that songwiters/ record companies would vary in their demands for licensing fees. I had no idea it was this easy...

erik · Post by **erik** » 27 Jul 2003 2:47 pm

TP, you're really going off on a tangent. I don't know how your assumptions address my comment.

Here's a question for you: Why is it that I never see writer credits for songs used in instrumentals recordings?

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 27 Jul 2003 3:02 pm

Tony, I think the licensing fee variations are for using the existing recordings or parts of them. Like for instance in a movie sound track or a commercial. So the writer and whoever owns the master gets the fee. Since I'm my own publisher and I own my masters, I would get all the fees.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 27 Jul 2003 3:37 pm

Erik, I think you are asking whether the lyricist gets paid when an instrumental version is licensed and sold. The answer is yes.
This is a vehicle commonly used by sleazy showbiz executives to siphon money away from its path to the songwriter. For example, Dave Kahn, longtime music editor at Universal, wrote the theme song to "Leave It To Beaver" but one of the suits there slapped some lyrics on it. I don't think anyone has ever heard the lyrics but he gets 50% very time it is played.
Then as Dr Thompson said, there's also a negative side, but I will skip that.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Jul 2003 5:48 pm

I think you are asking whether the lyricist gets paid when an instrumental version is licensed and sold. The answer is yes.

Well, of course! When you hear the instrumental, don't you kind of "sing" the lyrics to yourself in your mind? Well? Who's gonna pay for that? You didn't invent those lyrics!

Send for the mind police!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Jul 2003 4:25 am

Erik..It's not a tangent my friend..

Tony L. These are agreed fees ( standardized if you will ) between the major players.

Erik..I may have been mistaken when I assumed you meant an Instrumental version of a popular song with lyrics...Concerning not seeing the writers name on an Instrumental...
Why don't you contact the artist who is playing the Instrumental and ask them why the writer is not shown on the credits ?

It should be..

Most instrumentals are versions of songs with lyrics, just as Jimbeaux stated...

If you search the Harry Fox Agency, they are just the middle man here..and the song you are looking for is not listed, and it may not be as there are many who self publish..then you have to contact that writer or publisher directly to obtain permission.

I'm not sure what the tangent was or is...

Instrumentals are written by someone..and whoever writes it is certainly entitled to credit..

The on-line licensing page offered from the Fox agency does make it quite easy to obtain formal legal permission unlike years ago when you had to call someone, send a bunch of letters back and fourth with contracts to use the song.

It is a simple process...

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 July 2003 at 05:36 AM.]

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 28 Jul 2003 4:28 pm

...let me show my ignorance here...it's clear what a songwriter does and what his ownership interest in a song is...what exactly does a song publisher do and how does he claim a financial interest in a song?..

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 28 Jul 2003 4:59 pm

Here's a good FAQ on the Bug Music site

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 28 Jul 2003 6:19 pm

..thanks, Greg...that's kind of what I thought..looks to me like a publisher, as opposed to a publishing administrator, takes a permanent piece of the action just for performing a service..

..I guess one analogy would be, if I own a shore house that I want to rent out, I hire a realtor to deal with the rentals, but instead of paying him a fee, I have to give him a large ownership interest in my house..or he might even take complete ownership of my house and pay me a fee whenever somebody rents it...

..sounds a little like going to the Mafia for a home equity loan..

..or I may be misunderstanding the relationship?..[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 28 July 2003 at 07:47 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 29 Jul 2003 2:14 am

In reading the BUG Music info, I see where they make the statement that they co-own the copyright. I am curious if that is a standard rule of thumb..I don't believe it is. I wouldn't have an issue if they collect 50% of the publishing and licensing fees..but co-owning the copyright ? That means they own 50% of the song you wrote.

What if you decide to move on to another publisher years later ?

Maybe I read it wrong...

I have always been told by everyone and anyone involved in this Al Capone industry to copyright your original work before you hit the streets. I still think that is good advice.It costs $30/song.

You can start your own publishing company just by going to City Hall, pay the $10 fee to start a business and name your company "Joes Publishing" with it's own Post Office Box address. Now you make a contract with your own publishing Company to publish your own song. Effectively you get 100%. The paperwork trail has begun.

From here you can make another deal with any publisher that you want or list with ASCAP or BMI under your publishing company name.

If by chance anyone actually happens to use one of your songs, 1 day a check will show up at the post Office Box,addressed to the publisher, who is you.

You are now self published but have also co-published with a major publisher for which the standard rates and fees will apply.

It's all about the paperwork trail and original ownership.

IF this seems simple, it's because it is.

But you still need a large presence and an agency, such as FOX (or BUG) to administer licensing so people can actually find you if in fact they are looking for you or your songs.

Me, I don't stay up at night worrying that folks won't find my songs..I am self published and thats where it ends. Basically if I sell songs over the internet, which I have done, (less than 50) I know I am protected by copyright and a publishing paperwork trail should Garth Brooks decide to sing a song I wrote and not tell me about it..but like I said..I'm not loosing sleep over this thats for sure...

The Real Estate analogy is good but keep in mind that the rental agent is generally local
dealing with local clients, something that you could do but how much time would it take out of your work schedule (or weekends)to do it ?

A single song publisher is dealing with an entire global industry and clients.(hopefully)

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 29 July 2003 at 03:45 AM.]

erik · Post by **erik** » 29 Jul 2003 1:40 pm

They co-own the copyright not co-write. The writer still gets 100% (or actually 50% of 100)

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 29 Jul 2003 2:50 pm

the writer owns the copyright,thats why we copyright..this is documented and dated proof of ownership, proof that you wrote the piece in question.

Actually I said that wrong..he who sends in the copyright paperwork first becomes the legal owner, maybe not necessarily the writer..

SO I guess I'm still confused as to how they could own half of the copyright.

The copyright is the paperwork trail to the original owner/writer, published or unpublished.

If you decide to break away from BUG as a publisher do they still own half of the copyright?

How did they get to own half the copyright to begin with ?

Answers are optional.., I'm just brainstorming here..

Who would offer half of owhership to someone who didn't participate in the writing ?

Paying a fee is one thing, signing away part your original writings is another..

It must be something different..I can't believe folks would do this...

An example of this is Buddy Holly's recordings, Fred Rose, I believe thats his name, copyrighted all of Buddy Holly's tunes after his death, heck maybe before..and added his name to the copyright which made him co-owner...and very rich...did he co-write with Buddy ? Look at all the Buddy Holly tunes, Rose is listed as a co-writer.

tp

Bruce Hamilton · Post by **Bruce Hamilton** » 29 Jul 2003 7:12 pm

TP-Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the oldest scam in Nashville-give us half the publishing rights and we will record you- A.K.A make you a star!!!
Could this be why almost everyone in Nashville seems to own a publishing company?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 30 Jul 2003 1:16 am

Bruce, I think it's one of the oldest scams aanywhere..Nashville included...

It's almost to hard to believe that it may still be still a scam ! Whats it been...50 years now ?

Lets all just sell AMWAY !

tp

seldomfed · Post by **seldomfed** » 30 Jul 2003 2:07 pm

Ok - So next time I write an instrumental I'll make sure I also copywrite lyrics to go with it - could just be "do, do, doo, doo, do, do, do...) My lyrics never make sense anyway.

Re: Copyright, You can still copyright a 'collection' of songs for a single fee. Not 30$/tune, but $30 for a bunch of tunes.
Saves you time and money.
http://www.copyright.gov/forms/formpai.pdf http://www.copyright.gov/forms/

Regarding public domain, I believe it's true that the 75 year rule is still in effect. But Disney is trying to change that since Mickey is about to turn 75!

Can anyone comment on the limits of public domain? Is it still 75 years, and can it be extended?

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Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"There is no spoon"
www.book-em-danno.com

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 30 Jul 2003 2:30 pm

I have been using form SR which is for a single composition, there is only 1 line for the title. I'm not clear on what form PA is used for ..

I have also been advised by music lawyers to copyright a single song at a time for the paperwork trail. I didn't know or understand that form SR could accept more than 1 song title .

tp
any thoughts ?

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 30 Jul 2003 2:53 pm

The way that traditional music publishing contracts work is that the writer assigns the copyright over to the publishing company. The publishing company then has a contractual obligation to pay a percentage of the income off the commercial exploitation to the writer. In the old days, it was 50%, although now, so called co-publishing gives the writer 75%. The primary sources of income are from mechanical royalties, that is, license fees paid by people who make records with the song on it - the type of licenses Harry Fox issues. The other major source is from performances of the song, on radio and other media, and from the venues that pay licencing fees to BMI and ASCAP, who, incidently, remit the writer his portion directly, and not through the publishing company.

Companies like Bug Music are copyright administrators, who, for a smaller percentage, handle the paperwork and collections, for a set term of years.

As to whether or not it is better to be self published, or use a company like Bug, depends. Real publishing companies work their artists’ material, doing demos, and pitching the song to artists, etc. Sometimes writer’s have to publish with publishing company affiliated with a record company or of a recording artist as a condition of the artist doing the song. Even then, if you have to publish your song with Mr. Big’s publishing company to get your song on Mr. Big’s album, if he sells a lot of records, that may just be part of the financial picture you have to deal with. It just all depends.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 30 Jul 2003 4:01 pm

Form SR is for copyrighting the actual sound recording.

Form PA is for the melody/lyric copyright.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 31 Jul 2003 6:24 am

So am I to understand that Form PA or Form SR can handle more than a single song for copyright ?

I fully understand the "Bug" business..and if thats what someone chooses to go forward with then thats a business match.

I pretty much still don't understand why a writer would go outside of there own domain to copyright their work...regardless of who the publisher may be. That to me almost borders on insane..

I own 100% copyright to my few piddly tunes, if I decide to offer a pecentage of copyright to a publisher such as BUG, then at least I have a choice in the decision process and should understand the business I am conducting going in...I guess the only real point I am making is that one should fully understand the business end before making decisions and signing away opportunity for income.

I write Steel related/Tele' related Instrumentals, and an occasional tune with lyrics. This is why I use the SR Form. I am not looking to sell nationally, although that would be quite an accomplishment.

I sell tunes over the Internet with TAB for novice / beginner players and have actually sold several.I provide full tracks for the tunes as well and I play all the parts, so I get the whole $10. That would include the Writer and Artist fees all in one ! Is this a great Country or what !

I am also aiming my tunes at getting a Pro Steel Player to play one in concert or maybe on an upcoming CD. That in itself would be a huge accomplishment for me...not to mention an incredible honor...I have several in the can that are not bad, according to my #1 critic, Mrs. Tony...

Sometimes you gotta get into the house thru the little 12x6 cellar basement window..if it's unlocked that is..cause I don't wanna' break the glass !

From all of this I have also been contacted by some sorta local Country Tele' novice players that want lessons..So I have taken on a few students again as well on the Tele'. This music world is pretty amazing..

great info here guys..thanks

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 31 July 2003 at 07:26 AM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 31 Jul 2003 7:47 am

Man, after reading this thread and ...
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

... I went to the Fox Agency and bought a license for the tune I just put up on my website ($42) ...

Turns out that Warner Bros. owns this 1936 song ... wouldn't want Bugs Bunny huntin' me down

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