They Write the Songs, They Write the....

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

Last evening I saw a video short on a PBS station about a Nashville song writer, Jon Robbins. He'd previously lived in Mendocino, CA, and got the bug to write country music, so he moved to Nashville with his wife and kids. He knew it was a loooooong shot (I've personally known people who moved there, tried to make it, and moved away), but after years of efforts he got a #1 hit in "I Breath In, I Breath Out" with Chris Cagle (who recorded the song). (Jon is now part of The #1 Club, which he says makes it about 10% easier to get one's songs out there.) It was interesting to see how Jon lives the routine of a few (4 per week, maybe) collaborative meetings with other song writers where they sit with six-strings in hand and hash out (hopefully) catchy lines, hooks, and chord patterns. It looked like each meeting was two friends strumming away for fun in a spare room converted to a mini studio, but this was their livelihood, and this is where Nashville's material comes from.

After the show was over, it occurred to me how many comments I've read on the Forum about how Nashville and country music in general just ain't what they used to be. Well, here I was watching the folks who actually write today's country. It was intriguing.

Jon had two rules for writing, which I'll paraphrase here:

1. Nobody wants to hear your song. It therefore has to be so good that they'll stop what they're doing because they just HAVE to hear that song again.

2. Don't believe rule #1 because otherwise you'll give up.

[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 25 February 2003 at 07:45 PM.]

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Good post! I've seen a number of today's current c/w song writers and heard their explanations for their success........and if it works, go for it.
However, when you see so many folks get up and go for the award after a #1 hit, you begin to realize how much of today's stuff is truly FORMULA stuff with many colaborators.
YET, in the bygone era, largely forgotten by today's younger folks, remember how many #1 hit songs were written on napkins, paper sacks, one's own skin, etc., while driving thro' the dark of night, or sitting around in some smoke filled bar........by some lonely or sad individual singer/writer who wrote from his SOUL, heart and everything else worthwhile? Those WERE the days!

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I think that the collaborations are why there's so much "sameness" in the country of today. Did you ever see a Willie Nelson, Kris Kristofferson, Tom T. Hall or any of the other great writers with another name listed beside theirs? Never! There were some exceptions as when the old drinking buddies would get together like Harlan Howard and Hank Cochran maybe. I'd say that Merle Haggard wrote all his great stuff by himself. Occassionally there'd be people like Boudleaux and Felice Bryant (Husband and wife) but the majority of the great old songs were by single writers. Larry Gatlin did a lot of beautiful things on his own also. Nowadays you see 3, 4, and sometimes 5 writers on a song so I guess you'd only have to be able to write half a verse or less to make it in Nashville as a song writer.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

I actually envy the working arrangement these Nashville song writers have.... a few times a week you drive between neighborhoods in Nashville and spend a half day jamming in another guy's music room. I'd love that. And it was obvious in the video these folks were having a great time. Then go off to record the finished product(s) in local demo studios. That's a blast, too. Just how writers make their connections to producers and major stars to promote their wares wasn't made clear, so I can't speak to that part of the job.

On the other hand, that kind of work is notorious for lack of job security, save for a very few writers. But then again, things here in Silicon Valley aren't so secure right now, either....

Jeff Evans · From: Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit

Wow, lot's of directions this could go.

Bill, I agree the creative life would be a sweet one. So many, many people write; so few make a full-time living at it. Wish I'd seen the feature.

The writers, I think, are among the least to blame for the NCS malaise. Anyone who attends songwriter shows or who has heard some of the demo recordings knows there is a treasure trove of wonderful material which has never been covered.

Isn't production/arrangement more of the problem? Aren't there many songs--the lyric and melody--out there which are good, but saddled with a Nashville funkadelic-rock groove? Covered up in big, crashing drums and too much thin-and-bright everything else? (Alison Krauss proves Nashville recordings need NOT sound that way. Norah Jones' similar, sparse production proves this is commercially viable.)

quote:
Did you ever see...any of the other great writers with
another name listed beside theirs? Never!

Is Dallas Frazier a great writer? Hmmm. There seems to be an A. L. "Doodle" Owens beside him quite a bit. So, he must not any good.

Oh...how about Aubrey Mayhew/Donny Young (Johnny Paycheck)? Nope. They can't be any good either. I mean, who'd want to listen to a crappy old song called, "Touch My Heart?"

[This message was edited by Jeff Evans on 25 February 2003 at 05:15 PM.]

Smiley Roberts · From: Hendersonville,Tn. 37075

Hey Jeff,
RE: Aubrey Mayhew
I.M.O.,I SERIOUSLY,doubt that Mayhew had ANYTHING to do w/ the writng of this,(or any other) song,for that matter. He MAY have changed a word (or 2) in the song,but that does not qualify him as a song writer! I've had a personal experience w/ him,& know that he is one of NashVILE's better "CON MEN". I,still,have a check from him,dated 1958!
("insufficient funds") He gave me the check on a Saturday."Now,don't cash this check until Tuesday,so I can deposit the money on Monday." Yeah,right! The check came back,& I haven't been able to track him down since.

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  ©¿©  It don't mean a thang,   


  mm   if it ain't got that twang.


       www.ntsga.com

nick allen · From: France

There are plenty of documented cases where a co-writer is listed on a song for business/financial reasons - some have been discussed on the forum previously. A classic example is the songs on which Elvis Presley is listed as co-writer, or the Hank Williams/Fred Rose songs (even if Fred Rose did apparently do some "tidying up", they are still basically Hank W songs).
As Jerry Hayes says, the real greats among country songwriters mostly wrote alone - or else the collaborations were "one-offs", or friendship deals, e.g. the Willie Nelson/Buddy Emmons song that has been discussed here before

Kristofferson in his partying days had a few collaborations - I got to talk to Bob Neuwirth after a show here recently, and he told me the story behind the song "Rock & Roll Time", a KK/Neuwirth/Roger McGuinn co-production...
Nick

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

I'm not a song writer (instrumentals yes, lyrics no) so I can't really say how these collaborations affect the results. But I could see how one person could both spur the other to creativity as well as help keep them on track in the process. The interplay also speeds things up, I'd think, so getting a large cache of material to offer to the recording/performing community would be easier when working as a duo. Plus it looks like they have a lot of fun.

Then there is the question of intent, or the goal of songwriting. I tend to hold to the more old fashioned or even romantic ideal mentioned above that songs are written because the writer was inspired by a person, thing, or an event in his/her or someone else's life that they managed to find a way to convey on an emotional level through song. If the song sells, great. If not, well, that's how it goes. A very different reason for writing is specifically to make "attractive" songs that are as marketable as possible. Does the former way of writing generally make better music than the latter? The general consensus seems to be "yes" (though I've heard many co-written songs in today's country that I really like).

Then there is the filtration process. The routine collaboration process I saw in the video produces songs of a wide range of quality, and some are very good. But these then need to get through a whole series of fine-pore filters (A&R, producers, artists, record company execs) who have their own visions and a bottom line to serve. That filtration process yields what we have on radio and in music stores today. Since the songwriters constantly monitor what makes it through the filter and what doesn't, it would seem to me they would tailor their efforts and adapt their styles to maximize success in getting through that system. That has to bias the results.

It's quite a machine.

Jeff Evans · From: Cowtown and The Bill Cox Outfit

Willie Nelson/Hank Cochran?
Whitey Shafer/Lefty Frizzell?
Curtis Wayne/Wayne Kemp?
Wayland Holyfield/Bob McDill?
Dean Dillon/Frank Dycus?

Richard Rodgers/Oscar Hammerstein?
Burt Bacharach /Hal David?

Just another little 'ol list of songwriters who aren't very good because...Great Writers Don't Collaborate. (You heard it here first.)

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

"To collaborate or not to collaborate".... I'm personally happy either way. There are fabulous songs which have come from both approaches. I just found it fascinating to see the inner workings of the Nashville songwriting machine (or at least some fraction of that machine) and collaborative duos seem to be the rule there. But then, what was shown on the video may only represent a minor portion of the overall source of songs in Nashville. They didn't say.

erik · Posted 26 Feb 2003 6:23 pm

The best songs are always written by either one or two person(s). That applies to all styles of music.

I was recently thinking of writing a song called ALL THE GOOD SONGS HAVE BEEN DONE... writing country music is no longer fun. Most of the material I hear today is too literal. Makes me think of the saying, "Do I have to spell it out for you!" That seems to be the current trend.

Tom Olson · From: Spokane, WA

Then there are the rip-off artists such as Norman Petty who is listed on most Buddy Holly songs, but who almost certainly provided no writing input.

Smiley Roberts · From: Hendersonville,Tn. 37075

Okay,here's what I don't understand. I have 2 friends,(husband & wife) that are songwriters.He (Dennis Payne) wrote "Highway Patrol"(Jr. Brown). She,(Jill Wood) wrote, "Out Of Your Shoes",(Lorrie Morgan). After the success of BOTH these songs,neither artist came back lookin'for more material from the writers. In fact,"Out/Shoes" was never even included on Lorrie's "Greatest Hits" album. You'd think that BOTH these artists would come back sayin',"Hey,what else ya got??"

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  ~ ~


  ©¿©  It don't mean a thang,   


  mm   if it ain't got that twang.


       www.ntsga.com

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

Let's not forget Vern Gosdin/Max D. Barnes

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1985 Emmons push-pull, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I agree with you Smiley, and it seems like neither one of those two artists have had any hits lately either, have they? That's strange that "Out of Your Shoes" wasn't on Lorrie's greatest hits. I always thought that was one of her best songs and had a great arrangement.
Another great song writer I like is Hugh Prestwood who wrote the great tune by Trischa Yearwood "The Song Remembers When" among others.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Joe Casey · From: Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)

Yuk Yuk..Smiley right on. Case in general "My shoes keep walkin back to you" Written by Lee Ross and it also list a "biggie" as co writer.I Spoke with Lee on the song years ago and know the story which was ok by him a move to get his foot in the door so to speak. No need to bring up my adventures but I tried the same route once and got screwed. Speaking of Dennis Payne who has written far better songs than the "Highway Patrol a song he wrote as a kid.I have had the privelege to hear a lot of his material. Not only is he a great writer. He is a great singer, musician and studio engineer. One of his songs I use to like to do was " I won't ever let you down" a top ten effort by Tommy Overstreet.Dennis should have had a "deal"years ago. Nashville must of been afraid to let loose another Bakersfield boy.

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CJC

[This message was edited by Joe Casey on 28 February 2003 at 09:12 AM.]

Greg Simmons · From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave

Read all about it... http://tennessean.com/entertainment/news/archives/03/03/29457094.shtml?Element_ID=29457094

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website

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