The fire in the rock club

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

By now everybody knows that there was a terrible accident and 96 people died. Now the authorites are looking to indict somebody and throw them in prison.

What the hell is wrong with those people? Don't they know the definition of the word accident? Do they think the band deliberately set out to kill a bunch of people, including their lead guitarist? Isn't it bad enough that people died, and everybody involved is going to be scarred for life? What good can possibly come out of incarcerating anybody in a situation like this?

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

I guess the lack of common sense is not a crime, but if there were laws broken, which if heeded, could have prevented the disaster, then someone should be held to account; if for no other reason than to avoid a similar event in the future.

The Copa, a few blocks away, had over 400 killed in that fire years ago. My understanding is many safety regs were instituted after the fire there. Let's hope some better understanding of safety is learned here as well.

Does somebody need to go to jail? I don't know, but the series of events were plainly an accident nobody planned on. Maybe that's the real problem.

Robbie Bossert · From: WESCOSVILLE,PA,U.S.A.

Here is the "Featured File" On The Smoking Gun Web Site. Great White played here in Allentown, PA at a club called Crocodile Rock. They did use pyro. The club owner told the press that "the band didn't even use pyro in his club" . However, our local paper; The Morning Call presented him with a fan photo that shows more fire than band. Of course he changed his tune right away. He said that "the band nor their management EVER asked for any permission to use such FX.". There are a lot of people trying to pass the buck right now. We'll just have to wait and see how it all falls out. The fact remains that nearly 100 people perished that night. Let's not lose sight of that.

Robbie Bossert

The band Great White's performance rider contains no mention whatsoever of pyrotechnics being used during the rock group's current tour of clubs and small theaters, The Smoking Gun has learned. TSG today (2/21) obtained copies of the band's rider from two separate promoters who booked shows by the group during the past month. A copy of the Great White performance specs can be found below. A third promoter, Domenic Santana, told TSG that the band set off a pyrotechnic display without his permission during a show in Asbury Park, New Jersey last Friday (2/14), putting the "lives of a lot of people in danger." Santana, owner of the Stone Pony, said that he "had no idea" that pyrotechnics were part of the rock band's show and pointed to Great White's standard performance rider, which makes no reference to pyrotechnic displays. Last night, at least 95 concertgoers were killed and 170 people were hurt at a West Warwick, Rhode Island show when the club erupted in flames following a pyrotechnic display during the group's opening song. Owners of The Station, the Rhode Island club where scores perished, this afternoon released a statement claiming that they, too, were never told about Great White's pyrotechnic plans. (9 pages)

Robbie Bossert · From: WESCOSVILLE,PA,U.S.A.

Here's a link to my page.............Click on it, hit links anf you'll find the link to The Smoking Gun. You really need to read the band's rider. Not one mention about the use of pyro!
http://hometown.aol.com/pix1bc/steelguitarhomepage-2.html

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

it does look like Great White put the noose around it's neck
as usual, the human element is all too often the cause for disasters
and what the heck are safety regulations for anyway?
so that this kind of disaster does'nt happen.
Great White made their bed, now let them sleep in it !

------------------
Steel what?

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

An accident is when an incident occurs when something happens " Inside the window " if you will. An incident such as this was due
to neglect and zero preparation. There is no other way to put it. The lack of safety preparation cannot be defended.

If you invite your neighbor to your house and he falls on your perfectly good sidewalk and gets injured, that is an accident and thats why you have homeowners insurance.

IF you have bricks and holes and debris all over , and your sidewalk is an obstacle course, and he falls and gets hurt, thats not an accident. Thats an incident that was waiting to happen. In this situation you were well aware of the present risk.

This was an extreme tragic situation and the bad news is it could have been totally avoided , all it would have taken was one person with some common sense. It is not possible to defend those in charge of this event for this neglect and lack of safety preparation. The safety of the audience is #1. This is not a "We think we are OK " scenario, it should have been " Here is our advance safety plan " scenario..

Imagine for a moment that they applied for a permit and were denied for safety reasons. It would have been a concert without PYRO and everyone would have gone home after the show.

Our State and Local municipalities have regulations for these types of events and
grant licenses to those that meet the criterea. When the event happens, the local Fire and Police staff know whats going on ahead of time and are prepared in advance for a possible situation. It appears that this did not happen here..Sadly..

96 people go to a show expecting to have a good time, hear some music..they loose their lives because someone decided to take matters into their own hands. Did they want or expect it to happen ?, Of course not. But that does not remove the factor of responsibilty from them.

When our children do things that they are not supposed to do and cause grief..we as parents hold them to a standard and they are held accountable..these are called consequences.

Sadly , there are 96 familes that are suffering a grieveous loss..and there are many survivors who are also suffering from severe smoke inhalation which will change their lives . If there was neglect..there will be consequences..and rightfully so.

tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 February 2003 at 03:37 AM.]

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Great White is currently booked into "Bricktown" a former warehouse district now refurbished into clubs and restaurants. The club is located in a building that many years ago manufactured caskets!

They haven't said anything about replacing their guitarist, but be assured that there won't be any pyrotechnics used! www.genejones.com

Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

The fire hits close to home. I teach in Warwick, Rhode Island. I just pray that none of our students were victims. I am sure I'll hear about the incident Tuessday when I go in to teach.

Tony, your statements are right on, IMHO. First, simple common sense would rule that fireworks are unsafe when used inside, with a low ceiling, and the audience right on top of the band. So that's the band's poor judgment.

Then once the fire caught, the place went up in 3 minutes. Why? Highly flammable soundproofing material. The club had no sprinklers. It was an old wooden building. The lights went off and there were no emergency lights. That's the facility's responsibility.

Rescue workers apparently did a marvelous job.

Rhode Island is a small state. Everyone knows everyone, so to speak. The tragedy will be deeply felt.

Chris

------------------
now living in the Ocean State ....

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

No, this won't be the end of pyrotechnics used to make music more "exciting", but it well should be! Stupid...plain and simple. Before I continue, I guess I should admit to once being a member of a band that used flashpots, lycopodium, and such. Yeah, we were stupid too. But luckily, other than a few singed eyebrows and beards, nobody was ever hurt.

Indoor pyrotechnics should be banned...completely! There's just no way you can make it 100% safe. There are too many variables at music venues, and most all of these shows are one-nighters allowing too little time for proper investigation and preparation.

Gary Lee Gimble · From: Fredericksburg, VA.

The accidental loss of life will most likely yield some involuntary manslaughter charges. The civil law suits will be directed to the nickel that can produce the most blood $.
Gary Lee

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Having been in the club business for the last 20 years I can tell you ultimately it's the club owner that has to oversee this kind of stuff. You're supposed to know what's going on in there no matter what. I had a guitar player want to use those flash pods one time before and our ceiling was a very low one and it had some kind of stuff sprayed on to help the acoustics. There are three clubs I know of in downtown Nashville that have this stuff on their ceiling. I wouldn't let him go on with it and had to tell him firmly that I couldn't take the chance. It's sad that this kind of thing happens but it's like anything else, you have to take responsibility for what you do and if 96 or 400 people die becuase of this kind of stupidy, someone has to be punished and a message has to go out to everyone else. Right now the fire marshalls are all over this town checking everything under the sun to make sure you don't have too many people and have enough exits, fire extinguishers, you name it. I heard another club owner on the news say that same band "Great White" had used the pyrotechnics at their club a week before without the club owners permission. The club owners are going to have to get it in writing that the band will not use this kind of stuff without the club owners permission and better yet they should check with the fire marshall to be safe. It sounds like the codes people are always trying to spoil your fun but they have a responsibility to protect the public from this kind of thing and the club owners and the bands that play there need to wise up and play it safe. How would you feel if that was one of your loved ones dead in there? Think you'd be sueing? You bet you would but nothing will ever bring them back. It was just a careless thing to do IMO. I always worried when somebody would fall off their stool or stumble on something fearing a lawsuit but this was just plain stupid to me. The bottom line here is this didn't have to happen.

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

What does it say for Great White when they must suppliment their (talent "?") with fireworks?

Rick

[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 23 February 2003 at 09:40 AM.]

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I wonder if these bands can make up some sort of electrical device that can simulate the effects of the pyrotechnics without the danger.

As has been said, filing a lawsuit or punishing somebody isn't going to bring anybody back. What is needed is to make sure this sort of thing never happens again.

JB Arnold · From: Longmont,Co,USA (deceased)

I can see all the pyro use if you're playing an arena-those places are built to hold that kind of stuff, and it's an integral part of the 80's style hair band show. But at a club that holds 400? I think common sense would say that's too much, and certainly unsafe under any circumstances...

JB

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Mullen Royal Precision D-10 8 & 5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

A kid is shooting off his new gun on a rooftop in Brooklyn, trying it out, taking a bead on a street light. He misses or ricochets and a little girl watching tv in her bedroom is shot through the head. Dead. The boy is so sorry (when they finally hunt down his sorry ass) and he didn't mean any harm.

So is this a tragic accident that we hope everyone can learn from? Or is this criminal stupidity and reckless disregard for human life, no stupider than what was done in Warwick, no more reckless. Someone's got to answer for this. Harsh? Not to some club kids' parents. Sorry just don't seem to cut it. An accident waiting to happen is more than just an accident. No good will come out of criminal prosecution but letting your insurance company cover your social responsibility (the inevitable civil actions) falls short of truly paying your debts and dues.

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

As a former Fire Investigator/Arson Investigator, responsible for code enforcement, I am aware that most governmental jurisdictions have adopted the National Fire Prevention Code for life safety standards in the public sector.

The NFPA establishes conditions for safe use of hazardous materials, requires inspections to ensure compliance, and when accidents occur even after all safety standards have been met, investigates to determine if the code should be modified. Any redress in the Courts is usually a civil matter.

However, in those cases where life and property are lost and it is found that there has been a deliberate intent by someone to circumvent safety standards, it becomes a criminal matter.

I don't know what safety standards are required by statute in the jurisdiction of this fire, but a subsequent investigation of the circumstances will determine whether it is a "civil" or a "criminal" matter. www.genejones.com

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Here's an update since my last post. Just this past Friday night the fire marshalls office and the local fire department were called to World Famous Tootsies Orchid Lounge here and everybody in the place was made to leave because it was too crowded. I knew this fire would get it going. You can believe they'll be watching things a lot closer now and they really should too. I guess that band lost all of their equipment along with their guitar player. Talk about a bad night!

Martin Abend · From: Berlin, Germany

ulfTone music, the label I'm working for, is licensee for Great White and Jack Russell in Europe. I met Jack and Ty, the missing guitar player, last summer when they where on promo tour. I can't tell you how shocked we were when we heard the news. Our thoughts and payers go out to the victims and their families. As of now it's still not clear if Ty survived.

Mike, you're right: Accusations won't bring back anyone. But let's hope everyone at least learns something out of this terrible tragedy.

CrowBear and Gene, I find your remarks extremely tasteless.

------------------
martin abend Pedal-Steel in Germany
s-10 sierra crown gearless 3 x4 | Regal RD45 | fender hotrod deluxe

Robbie Bossert · From: WESCOSVILLE,PA,U.S.A.

In response to Rick Collin's post. It's called "Show Business" for a reason. It is the Business of show! I agree that they could have used better judgment. They're not the first band to try and enhance their show with such fx.

If we're going to talk about this band based on their talent alone, I gotta' say that I think that they're one of the better bands to come out of that whole Hairspray and make-up trash that the 80's are so fondly remembered for. Unfortunately, everything about the band other than this tragic incident is bound to be forgotten. Everyone lost here. Some more than others.

------------------
http://www.mynvo.com/pix1/pages/view/index.nhtml

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Robbie Bossert · From: WESCOSVILLE,PA,U.S.A.

Well, Rick, They gotta' eat too. But it seems you've missed the point and so I'll leave it at that. However, if I were a Doctor, I would recommend that you reread the previous post, stop and think about the point I was trying to convey and use the God given brain that you apparently have chosen to ignore while pecking out your previous response. I know you can do it. Take a few deep breaths and just go for it!

Robbie Bossert (Dr. Bossert To The Mentally Challenged)

[This message was edited by pix1 on 23 February 2003 at 05:34 PM.]

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

...."Gene, I find your remarks extremely tasteless....

??

?? I carefully read my posts again and fail to see anything that should have provoked that remark...unless maybe you are against any controls or codes to protect the public from the use of hazardous materials.....or, it's a stretch but, I can see where you might have taken something from separate paragraphs and interpreted it different than my intent. In either case, the source of the information that I commented on was as reported by the Associated Press!

However, for a personal opinion, the ultimate insensitivity displayed in any of this would have to be a band that would continue their tour after all of those deaths and before even determining the fate of one of their own band-members.

www.genejones.com

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 24 February 2003 at 06:30 AM.]

Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

I was at a professional Audio show only two weeks ago, looking at some acoustic foam for our practice rooms. As a college we have to be squeaky clean when it comes to public liability, and the salesman was only too keen to demonstrate the fire retardant quality of his product. "Unlike", he said, " a lot of the cheap, so-called acoustic foams on sale here today"
Once again, cost cutting has cost lives, it seems, even if you leave aside issues of blame and negligence.
Dave

[This message was edited by Dave Boothroyd on 24 February 2003 at 12:44 AM.]

Robbie Bossert · From: WESCOSVILLE,PA,U.S.A.

Hey Dave. That is one of the issues that's being looked at in this case. The singer said the "It wasn't the right stuff". Referring to the sound tiles. It'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

This club owner has had bands in there before that used pyro on a regular basis. Including a Kiss tribute band that made Great White's show look tame. There's a lot of finger pointing going on and no one wants to take responsibility.

Let's just hope that something positive can come from all this.

Robbie Bossert

Forum Index > Music	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic