Analysis - What Do You Hate About NCS?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Jul 2002 7:54 am

A lot of people rant about this New Country Shit, and we've been doing it for a long time. Comments like "It's not country", and "It's just bad rock'n'roll" can be found in most topics about the younger artists.

In this topic, I'd like to explore the specific musical elements of NCS that really turn us off. Instead of general statements like "I don't like the Nashville production", let's get into the nitty gritty of what it is in the sound that rubs us the wrong way.

Here are a few of my objections: <ul>[*]the drums are too busy and too loud[*]the mix is compressed to the point where it sounds like a TV commercial[*]the singer's accent sounds phoney[*]the steel licks are only 2 beats long[/list]I'm sure people have other observations. What I'm asking you to do is to listen carefully, and try to pinpoint what is happening in the sound that rubs you the wrong way.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 21 Jul 2002 8:08 am

I can be very specific, no Lloyd Green

Chad Smith · Post by **Chad Smith** » 21 Jul 2002 8:29 am

Great topic Bob, hope we get some intelligent discussion on this one

. For the record, I'm 34 years old and much prefer anything from Merle Haggard, George Jones, Buck Owens, Ray Price, etc... to the NCS. Although it's difficult to say exactly what I don't like about NCS, here are a few of my musical observations.

Drums too loud and too busy
With a few exceptions, it's lost the "simplicity" that made it real
Arrangements that are so full that the individual instruments and talent are lost
There aren't songs anymore that feature steel prominently throughout the majority of the song (as in "together again" for example)
I personally prefer good country shuffles and waltzes, neither of which fit the "program" these days for the most part.

Now, before I get any backlash let me point out that I said in most cases the above is true. There are some exceptions (Brad Paisley, most Alan Jackson & George Strait, and a few others), but for the most part I'd just prefer to hear the good old stuff.

I'm looking forward to the responses on this thread, and to learning more about the specific musical differences that you all can point to in the NCS which turn you off.

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Chad Smith

Fender B&G Bender Tele
Fender Hot Rod Deluxe
Temporarily "Steel-less in Tucson"

Janice Brooks · Post by **Janice Brooks** » 21 Jul 2002 8:39 am

Drum rythems that sound so artificel on pop records.
Arrangments so genaric that the changes for pop radio are easy to edit.

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 21 Jul 2002 8:48 am

To tell you the truth, I like NCS (shame on you b0b for using the "S" word - just kiddin') as well as classic country. I try to like all kinds of music. As far as the drums/bass thingie, I have always liked a "heavy" rhythm section. Could be cuz I was a drummer before playing steel. I will agree that the live shows nowadays over steps good taste in the mix with too much bass and drums.

Not enough steel -- AMEN. As a steel player, I would love to hear more of it, but, OH WELL. Not my record, not my choice.

Although there is not a lot of steel, I do enjoy great harmonies (sometimes the backup vocals are better than the artist) and other instrumentation (guitar, mandolin, (b0b forgive me) banjo, etc. One example is the song "It Takes a Little Rain" by the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. I crank the song up LOUD (to where my hair stands up straight) and listen to one of the best guitar solos I have ever heard in my life (IMHO). No steel, but WOW, what a great song.

A song with great lyrics will turn me on even if I don't care for the artist or it doesn't have any steel.

I grew up on rock and roll as well as country, so I guess that is why NCS doesn't repulse me like it does some others.

Well, I've dug my hole deep enough.

OOPS! Thought of some more stuff. I don't like that a lot of the newer artists sound alike.

Is the "dryer" or "compressed" sound of NCS the result of digital recording as opposed to analog used in the olden days? This is something I have wondered about as I really don't know the answer.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 21 July 2002 at 09:55 AM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 21 Jul 2002 8:51 am

I like a lot of NCS.
(The S stands for Songs in this case).

Specifics about what I don't like are:
<UL>
[*]Distorted Flashy Guitar Solos, that sound like 80's Van Halen-ish rock. Travis Tritt uses a lot of these.
[*]Songs that have no memorable melody. Can you whistle them, or play them as an instrumental?
[*]Over-produced Ballads. Usually featuring Female Vocalists, backed by Orchestral Arrangements. What's Country about this??
[*]Lack of Acoustic Guitar.
[*]"Dance Mix" style production featuring too much BASS & DRUMS.
[*]"Chick Songs" that put down guys in a way that the reverse would be unacceptable.
[/list]

Good topic!

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 21 Jul 2002 9:04 am

I agree with Joey about the absence of strong melody. I think it's becoming a lost art. I listened to a song on the radio the other day and I swear it consisted of 3 notes. What a collossal bore.
My pet peeve is alot of the rhythmic devices they use now. Funk and Motown bass lines destroy the integrity of the music to me.
Eloquent phrasing has also disappeared. Everything moves fast, there are no large areas to fill anymore. What do you do with 2 beats ? I'm afraid it's designed for consumption by people with short attention spans.
I thought music was supposed to evoke sex, not masturbation.
-John

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 21 Jul 2002 9:05 am

Generalizing, I'd say that most of the stuff I hear on country radio these days makes me want to change the dial almost immediately because it's just TOO DERNED SQUARE!

It's elevator music with a fancy wrapper. It's fluff. Perhaps a lot of it is technically challenging I'm sure, but it's just got no SOUL.

I know that ain't specific, but it's just plain SQUARE.

My Humble Opinion, of course.

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 21 Jul 2002 9:06 am

I agree with you b0b, but occasionally there is one that rises to the top, such as "The Impossible" by Joe Nichols IMHO. Too much Tele on the treble position, and not enough Gregg Galbraith on his Les Paul. Wouldn't it be great if a song were allowed on the radio just by being a song that people liked, regardless of the recording technique,i.e. "Don't You Mess With My Toot Toot" drum machine, not a great production....but very popular with the general public. These opinions are humble, and they are my opinions only. They do not reflect the opinions of b0b, Bobbe Seymour, Ernest Bovine, Woody Chrisman, or Squarepants Sponge Bob!

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 21 Jul 2002 9:35 am

I recently had to learn a bunch of new NCS tunes for a weekend gig that I did last week and I found the stuff, in general, to be over-produced and tiresome. Notwithstanding the lack of steel, it sounded like Phil Spector started to produce country. All gaps were filled and there was no dynamics due to over-compression. Pretty sad stuff for the most part with small glimpses of light from Alan Jackson, Brad Paisley and the like. It really leaves the door open for young innovative people to create still using the sparse palette of traditional music. [This message was edited by John Lacey on 21 July 2002 at 10:37 AM.]

Leonard G. Robertson · Post by **Leonard G. Robertson** » 21 Jul 2002 10:21 am

I miss the melody lines played on an instrument as if it was a humane voice. I miss the 7th chords leading into the next obvious chord change. I also miss the older style of harmony , as well as a type song that has a chorus that reaches a climax. I'd better quit now before I get carried away. Leonard

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 21 Jul 2002 11:19 am

The overuse of the Antares McSinger machine. It seems like they use it on everything they can for that radio friendly sound.

Actually I don't get to listen to current CW these days because there is no radio station that plays it in my region.

Bob

Pat Jenkins · Post by **Pat Jenkins** » 21 Jul 2002 11:26 am

As an afternoon dj, I get to listen to 4 hours of HNC every weekday (with a couple of oldies each hour). I agree with many of the points brought up so far. I used to love it when you could actually here the great sound of an acoustic rythym guitar. You can hear it nowadays, once in a blue moon. The incredible heavy mix in todays music has sent me home with a headache more than once. Just so you don't get the wrong impression, I do love my job.
One of the great problems is not that we aren't using good musicians on the recordings today, it is that they have been trained by the young rock producers to come up with the pop sound. As a dj, I will honestly admit, when flipping across the dial while traveling, if I hit upon a song that I don't immediately recognize, I have no idea if I am on a country station. We have lost the distinction between country and pop...at least on the radio. Pat

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 21 Jul 2002 11:41 am

Back when Country wasn't cool (Thank you Ms. Mandrell !!) others would say country music sounded too whiny. Now most of the vocals sound like some new form of yodeling with falsetto flips that are enough to make a horse snicker.

When we had the Bicentennial affair back in '76, some woman sang the national anthem that brought cries of dismay from across the nation because of that flipping, yodel like effect. It sounds like a dying duck in a thunderstorm or a lovesick dog howling back at an owl. I know some people love it but it makes me sick and since I hear it everytime I turn on the radio, I don't turn the darn thing on anymore. I've just stopped listening to anything.

BTW: live on TV early one morning, our co-host asked the host if he knew how to learn to yodel. He said you take a raw oyster and tie a string on it and after you swallow, you pull it back up. And there in the audio portion of the show you could hear one of the musicians getting sick in a trash can.
One of the hazards of live TV and perhaps why they don't do it any more.....

Regards, Paul

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 21 Jul 2002 11:56 am

We have lost the distinction between country and pop...at least on the radio

Not for me; country stations sounds different right away to me.

The things that b0b mentioned don't bother me much. It's the offensively stupid lyrics that drive me away.

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 21 Jul 2002 12:43 pm

NCS

First of all, I like all music...Its the delivery method that seems to get my goat these days...

Guys and Gals like George Jones, Waylon, Lorreta and such added life experience credibility to the lyrics....Although the new crop of very young singers are extremely talanted they just seem to loose my interest when they sing about the blues, love etc...what does a 14-20 year old know about love (other than the mechanics)?

Also, along the lines of delivery..the music is just too perfect...thanks to modern recording methods and the engineer's ability to move licks around and "pull" to pitch. I really love the occasional "clams" on older recorded music were a player normaly had one shot at his track and had to make it count. Its those "clams" that make music come alive to alot of us...who would want to watch a ball game or boxing match or race if you new what the out-come would be? Nobody droping the ball, spinning out etc.

Bla, bla, bla sorry for ranting.

Opinionatedly yours,

Tom Jordan[This message was edited by Tom Jordan on 21 July 2002 at 01:46 PM.]

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 21 Jul 2002 1:03 pm

I agree and cant add much in the way of musical elements as listed by Bob,Chad,Joey, especially "phony accents", no good melodies, and as Janice puts it..."generic pop arrangements".
For me, what wreaks most about much of NCS, in addition to the musical elements mentioned, is phonyness and shallow content. Particularly those narcissistic chick songs that all sound alike(i keep a handy supply of air sick bags in the car for those).
As Merle once said on a radio interview, " country music today...well, the songs just ain't about nuthin anymore". or something to that effect.
For me, the heart and soul of country was folks with salt singin simple songs with good melodies about real life. What I hear these days is young ambitious wannabe stars with no real salt in their bucket. But I got away from specific musical elements. well crickey! I better shut up and go practice.

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 21 Jul 2002 1:08 pm

A lot of the compression and general lack of dynamic range you hear in today's radio isn't so much the studio (though they do squash the mix there somewhat) as the broadcast stations themselves. There's a huge difference between the sound I get when I play back my country CDs at home and the sound I hear on the radio when they play the very same songs. The broadcasters add multiband compression, aural enhancement (exciters), de-essing (to make the audio fit into the 15k bandwidth), and probably more stuff I'm unaware of. Very unnatural sounding. The unprocessed CDs are tons better. So don't let the radio sound fool ya' unless you've heard the CD itself.

A lot of today's country is also homogeneous in both writing and performance. As for writing, a lot of the songs 'try' to sound country by making sure they mention the pickup truck, the dog, the lost love(s), the farm, moonshine, the wide open fields and two lane roads.... these things are fine and are basic elements in country music, but you know it's stilted material when they show up all in the same song. As for performance (and we've discussed this here before), the Nashville producers hedge their bets by using the A-Team and/or their close associates virtually all the time. I grew up on 60's and 70's rock and that never happened... it was the real band in the studio, for better or for worse. God bless those studio legend guys, they are absolutely great and I love to hear them. But I also appreciate it when somebody's road band gets in there, as with Dwight Yoakam, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Alison Krause, and others.

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Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Jul 2002 1:45 pm

Well I like some of the NCS ( I'm with Joey here, the S stands for song) What I don't like is the look of the bands and the singers. They don't look like they are there to sing a Country song but rather to hang with Mick Jagger instead. I like the strong Tele solo's and some of the rock solo's on guitar but not when the song is built around
the guitars in overdrive. I would certainly like to hear some more Steel, that would be nice. Some of the tunes have limited melody and poor lyrics in my opinion but heck, what do I know, I'm in this side of the radio. I believe the Alan Jacksons, George Straits and Brad Paisleys poppin out tunes with Tele solo's and Steel solo's will well survive the life cycle of some of these sorta rock folks singing sort of Country songs. At least some of them are trying to pretend to be Country, lets see how long they survive.
tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 July 2002 at 02:46 PM.]

Doyle Weigold · Post by **Doyle Weigold** » 21 Jul 2002 2:28 pm

I got to agree with everything said. For my 2 cents worth what I would like to see come back to radio is new songs done the old way, I guess is the best way to put it. Remember when Steel played the intro and half the middle? Some only had 3 or 4 chords in but they seemed to put enough imagination in every new release that it never got reputicous or boring by any means. Now they play Classic Country on Sunday night for 2 hours and think that is supposed to satisfy us. We've already heard those. I personaly would like to hear new lyric that makes some kind of sense, and a whole lot more steel. The old way with new idea's. Doyle

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Jul 2002 3:48 pm

What Bill siad about the compression and such on the radio is interesting, especially in light of the fact that FM radio doesn't really need compression. I wonder if that sound is keeping me from buying records I would otherwise like.

I remember hearing a Dixie Chicks song that sounded like it might actually be a good track, except for the bizarre mix. Maybe if you run traditional arrangements through the radio compressor machines, they sound wierd.

Regarding lyrics, I get pretty sick of songs about Dad's car.

Someone mentioned the R&B bass lines and rhythms. That's a good point.

I'm with Earnest - I can recognize the country station even when I don't know the song. If the vocal doesn't give it away, the Telecaster twang does it. Also, the mix is different from pop, believe it or not.

I didn't mean to offend with the 'NCS' acronym. It's just what I've always called top 40 country. I guess HNC (Hot New Country) is what they want us to call it, but it doesn't sound all that 'hot' to me.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 21 Jul 2002 3:51 pm

Several folks are 'bout right. There's no melody---So many of our old "classic favorites" sound like instrumentals, with lyrics, and that's a good thing. And when the pickers are turned loose, it's for a little turnaround. Even the Singletary record, which is great, is guilty of this. But country radio has lost itself. In trying to appeal to the kids(who, BTW, are growing out of this bubblegum BS), they've left us old folks(I'm 47)behind. Wouldn't it be wonderful if love lasted forever, nobody got drunk, everybody had money, and Mommies and Daddies lived perfect lives? Doggone right it would, but we'd have missed out on some real good country music. The "hit factory" turns out garbage like "Goodbye Earl", and I wanna hear a shuffle. Or some Hank-Sr. Or Merle. By the way, no offense to LLoyd Maines! But come on, don't NOBODY get their heart broke no more?

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 21 Jul 2002 4:11 pm

Ocassionaly I hear something I really like on the radio and then the artist is gone never to be heard from again. What's happening here? A few years back some guy brought back the old tune "That's How I Got to Memphis" and had a great record of it and then he wasn't heard from any more. Or the guy who did the remake of Johnny Cash's "Get Rhythm". Then there's the remake of the Statler Brother's "Flowers on the Wall". I wish I could remember these artist's names but they weren't there long enough for an old dude like me. I bought a CD by a kid who was on the Nashville Network nightime show one time who played a great lead guitar and wore a Rhinestone jacket and all. His song was "If You're Lookin' for the Real Deal" He was country to the bone. I do like some of the new different artists though. The name is "PinMonkey" but these boys are cool. Their lead work is done on a Dobro too............

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Jul 2002 4:42 pm

What Bobby and Joey said!

Janice Brooks · Post by **Janice Brooks** » 21 Jul 2002 5:08 pm

Deryl Dodd and Martin Del Ray

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047
[This message was edited by Janice Brooks on 21 July 2002 at 07:09 PM.]