Was it just my ears or,,,,,,?

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 14 Mar 2002 2:36 pm

I didn't know you'd ever played with me, Fred.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 14 Mar 2002 3:22 pm

Donny for President!!! Hey Donny man, we still love you. Bob, I gotta go with you on this one.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Mar 2002 5:32 pm

Thanks for the "vote" of confidence, Kevin!

I like all you guys, too. (I even like Bob, even though we butt heads once in awhile.) As I have said many times, I don't care how anybody tunes, as long as they get it done, and then play the thing in tune. But when someone says something to the effect that everyone should use a tuner all the time or they won't be in tune, it's tantamount to a a slap in the face of all of the great musicians of the past...who did just fine without one.

I'm done on this thread.

Peace.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 14 Mar 2002 5:34 pm

I don't think Bob made any such statement. He did say that orchestra people use tuners.. and he's right.
One thing I've noticed about horn players in particular, they are probably the worst for tuning, as their instrument is always in tune with itself (not necessarily with anyone else though). Orchestra people, on my opinion, do not have the market cornered on good intonation.. with or without tuners.
String players seem to know the most about tuning, to my mind.
Although piano tuners often don't use tuners beyond a primary reference note, they do have the luxury of relative quiet in which to count beats and weave black magic, which I'm certainly not afforded in the bar. My piano tuner goes nuts when the guy two blocks down is mowing his lawn. I'd like to see his tune it while surrounded by a dozen drunken French loggers singing "The road to Fort Colounge"
I'm also convinced that, any intonation problem in the above-mentioned television show could be for a myriad of reasons.. but rather doubt it's "because they use tuners".
Back to my question, Donny, are you claiming that you could tune a steel to perfect Equal Temperment without a tuner ?
-John

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 14 Mar 2002 5:50 pm

Donny,

You have misunderstood my post. Players have always had to deal with intonation issues. Guys can play in tune or they can't. Tuners are a usefull tool that are used in all forms of music at this point. My comments about the classical world are only to show that it is not a valid frame of reference for your missguided assumtion that musicians from some fictional past always played in tune.
Overall I agree with your contention that playing in tune takes alot of hard work and that reliance on a tuner will not do you much good once the bar hits the strings.

As far as that tired routine goes about how musicians (or music) used to be real at some point in the recent past and now they are not real goes I'm not buying.

Bob

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 18 Mar 2002 11:12 pm

As in most arguments - I mean "discussions" - there is some truth on all sides here. That's because no two situations are the same and can't be held up to an inflexible rule or measurement. We know the facts are; before tuners, some musicians tuned very well by ear, some could not. In noisy environments it's much more difficult to tune and quite often resulted in less-than-perfect tuning. In a recording studio you usually have time to tune. On some live shows' stages, sometimes you do, sometimes not. The electronic tuner usually solves these problems but can occaisionally cause problems of its' own, as when each bandmember uses his own tuner and they have not been calibrated together, the keyboards can also be out of calibration. I have a tuner that appears to be working but will tune everything about a 1/4 tone sharp when the batteries get weak. All these things add up to all the scenarios descibed in the previous posts. My own opinion based on my personal observations and experiences is; bands are more in-tune now since the electronic tuner mainly because they allow quick-tuning in noisy rooms. This doesn't mean that many musicians are incapable of tuning by ear, given reasonable time and quiet conditions. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 18 March 2002 at 11:14 PM.]

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 18 Mar 2002 11:27 pm

John Steele, I wouldn't want to bet you, but I've known a few piano tuners who are very adept at counting beats, as they learned their trade in the days of pitch forks. I wouldn't be surprised if they could give a steel a tempered tuning. Also, saxophones are notoriously out of tune. A player can't simply play a scale without adjusting his embouchure.
Respectfully,
Dave

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 19 Mar 2002 4:54 am

This discussion has reminded me that back in the dark ages before tuners were invented, the routine was to "unplug" the juke box for five or ten minutes so the band could tune.

www.genejones.com

gary darr · Post by **gary darr** » 19 Mar 2002 3:02 pm

I am no expert on orchestra music but is it possible that the inconsistancies of the various instruments causes a chorus effect with "slightly out" notes beating against one another maybe we have just come to accept that sound

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Sho-Bud proII custom,Session 500,American standard Strat,Shecter tele,Peavy Classic 50,Fender Vibrolux

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 25 Mar 2002 9:24 pm

Well, I'm no expert, but I depress my A and B pedals and tune my 4th string to 440 E. I tune everything else by ear. It is seldom that I have to tune during the show. I may bump the 3rd a fuzz, but that's about it.

Manny Shuffles · Post by **Manny Shuffles** » 25 Mar 2002 9:42 pm

You can tune a steel, but you can't tuna fish.

and I thought you guys had exhausted all things to argue about.

I believe the appropriate way to go about it would be for nobody to tune. Then your country band will sound like an orchestra

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swing it til' the wheels fall off!

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 25 Mar 2002 10:39 pm

Donny, I have told you several times that you are consistently right on target with everything you say. I still maintain that except this time. When that piano tuner is doing his job he has absolute quiet and plenty of time. He tunes the strings and the player does not have to lay his hands all over the strings and constantly stretch them and loosen them during his performance. I know of no instrument that sounds worse that a steel guitar when it is out of tune. I would have no problem tuning my guitar in the quiet of my music room at home but with all the noise that goes on on stage it is impossible. If you arrive early and tune up perfectly by ear or tuner, you start to play, the building temp goes up, the stage lights come on.....I sure am glad I have that DTR1 in my rack. I can hit the mute, trim it up every so often and play in tune. This is not to say the ear is not of great importance. I would think a player with a great ear for pitch could play an out of tune guitar and sound better than a player with no good ear for pitch could play a guitar that is in perfect tune. Donny, I still think you are an extremely intelligent guy and I always pay attention to what you have to say.

Bobby, look what you started!!!
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 25 March 2002 at 10:43 PM.]

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 26 Mar 2002 7:48 am

In a belated response to John Steele, I use my tuner to start out with. As stuff goes out of tune, I can hear the beats between the 4th. and 3rd. string and get them in the ballpark. The rest of the tuning is easy, octaves and such. I must say though, I rely heavily on my tuner in the heat of battle.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 31 Mar 2002 6:18 pm

Steel guitars that are out of tune sound BEEUTIFUL, COMPARED TO 4 STRING FIDDLES THAT ARE OUT OF TUNE. JMO