| Author |
Topic: Is LIVE music what it used to be? |
Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 12:10 am |
|
| BUT, I still agree with Mike W. also. |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 12:25 am
|
|
It amazes me that there is contention over this situation in Nashville, since its really just a matter of perception.
No one has disputed Paul's contention that the music in Nashville has changed and expanded, but that in that expansion, the role of traditional country has diminished.
Mike and his fellow mindset-types don't deny that opportunities exist for steel guitarists (or any musicians, really) in fields outside of trad., but really feel disappointed that the music they love is no longer as important to the folks who live in Nashville as it was in day's gone by. This is their lament.
Paul and his co-believers feel that yes, traditional country is no longer as important as it once was... and that may or may not be a shame..., but they also choose to see windows of opportunity to play other musics that they also love and enjoy, but does not fit the generally accepted role of steel guitar in our culture.
It's like one group chooses to see the musical glass as half-empty, and the other sees the musical glass as half-full. But the situation, to the disinterested observer, is neither good nor bad. It simply "is."
Back to the topic question: Is LIVE music what it used to be? The answer is most probably "no," but that could be either a positive or a negative, it's simply YHO.
Incidentally, what... if anything... is "what it used to be?"
------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 04 January 2002 at 12:29 AM.] |
|
|
|
Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 12:58 am
|
|
Oh yea? 'nother way a' say'en it! Yep!We are really all kinda' chasing our tails. Running around in circles, Herb, as ever, you said it best.
B--------- |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 3:12 am
|
|
This thread is sort of like reading a book,
My daughters use to read these "choose your own adventure books", this may be one of them ! I somehow think that the intitial issue was lost or forgotten in the multi posts. Traditional Country gigs are fading, Live Gigs are not fading, Traditional Country gigs are. Folks that want to go and listen to Traditional Country are still out there but when they go to a "scene" which is
labled as a Country Music venue they get something other than that. No Release Me, No Steel, No Crazy arms... possibly some Garth Tunes maybe an Allen Jackson tunes with loud lead guitars and effects pedals, pretty much middle of the Road Rock bands or Lounge groups playing their version of a Country tune now and again with 50's and 60's mixed in. This in totality is not a bad thing but it is if folks are coming to hear a Traditional Country band. It's no wonder that that Country Gigs, there were never a ton of them anyway, are going by the wayside. Folks are not returning to those venues and we know what happens next. I doubt anyone is actually looking to make a living playing traditional Country in a club anywhere, but it would be nice to go to be able to go out and actually see and hear a legitimate group playing tradtional tunes. I ran into a young Guitar player recently in a local music store( early 20's ?) a very good player as well, He told me he played in a Country Band and I asked him about some tunes, like Ray Price for example, He told me they don't play that old crap ! I told him I have, I could, I would and I do...play Ray Price tunes of course ! he blew me off cause I am an old guy..So In my infinite wisdom, I picked up the closest strat and played some vintage Clapton , and blew him off.."He who inserts foot in mouth ends up with foot in mouth !"
Still tryin' to figure out what all these knee thing'ys are for..TP[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 January 2002 at 03:14 AM.] [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 January 2002 at 03:15 AM.] [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 January 2002 at 03:17 AM.] |
|
|
|
Franklin
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 3:45 am
|
|
Bobbe,
I rarely read this forum anymore but in the past you were really insulting all of us all over the forum. Since we all know you we also know that alot of the insults are real and you always try to use the disguise of humour as an excuse when confronted. That excuse doesn't work with those who know. I thought I would post very cordially to you openly on the forum to see if anything has changed between us but judging from the condescending remarks I see nothing has changed. Call me and we can discuss this farther in private. Also the mispelling was not done intentionally. I am like you on this one. Spelling is not my forte.
Mike W,
You don't love traditional anymore than I do and I would never advocate that anyone should stop loving that music. The difference between you and I is that I also love and expose my ears to the rest of the music world, you from your posts say everything else is crap.
Also Nashville is called music city not country music city. Chet and Owen wanted to create a Nashville music scene that could compete with LA and NY. Their goal has become reality.
Herb, As usual, you have said it best.
Jim,
The bands that play at the other rooms play for the door. Most can pack the place and can earn anywhere from a 100 to 200 a night depending on how many pieces split the purse and also on how much the cover is.
I'm going to Florida in a couple of hours.
Paul |
|
|
|
Joe Casey
From:
Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 4:00 am
|
|
Paul don't bring your bathing suite it's 33 degrees right now as I type..Of course it's only 6 Am and It's the gulf breeze cooling us down but will climb to the low 70's sometime today...
------------------
CJC
|
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
|
|
|
|
bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 6:57 am
|
|
Herb,once again you have said it better than it could have been said. How did you get so wise.
Paul, there is no dishonor in standing up for your self or your family. I think you are right on. You go brother. 
This post reminds me of an old saying we had when I was in college, "those that can do, do. Those that can't teach." I think we could apply this to some guys on this fourm so here goes. "those that can make a living playing music do, those that can't get on the fourm and complain about why they can't and how bad the music is." IMHO |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 7:31 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Herb,once again you have said it better than it could have been said. How did you get so wise |
Bob, I don't have an extraordinary amount of wisdom, I don't think. But in answer to your question, I'd say that my approach is based on my early college career, around 1965-68, when my major was Cultural Anthropology, with an emphasis on Ethnomusicology. Cultural anthropology seeks understanding of humanity by comparing how different cultures around the world handle different aspects of their lives, environments, etc.
(please excuse the $5 words, y'all  )
Two of my professors were extremely influential to my thinking processes about music and encouraged me to become a professional picker. One was Bess Lomax Hawes, of the famous Lomax family of folklorists... daughter of John Sr., and brother of Alan. The other was Fred Katz, who was the first jazz cellist and played in the great Chico Hamilton group with Jim Hall on guitar, and Ray Brown on bass (as I recall... could be memory failure).
Both of these professors of mine instilled in me an acceptance of (but not necessarily a preference for) many different types of music.
For example, Fred's course was focused on jazz in our culture, and he had me bring my bluegrass band in to play for the class (in '65 I was primarily a bluegrasser). He called our music "bluegrass jazz," because it entailed what he called "the jazz experience": improvisation. Not that we played what is generally accepted as "Jazz," but that in improvising our solos, we experienced and presented to our listeners the spontaneity of "instantaneous creativity," which is the essence of that type of music. For Fred, there are two general types of music: composed music and improvised music. And we do acknowledge "jazz-rock," "jazz-fusion," "western swing," and more as distinct musical genres in our culture, so the analysis works for me.
Anyway, that's why I'm very acceptive of many types of music, though I have my personal favorites on top; traditional country, western swing, big band jazz, and Charlie Parker. So I'm basically a traditionalist at heart, but with an open mind.
Excuse the rambling, but then again... be careful what you ask for, you just might get it! 
------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
|
|
|
|
Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 7:35 am
|
|
| And then there are some who make quick judgements of people or situations with virtually no real knowledge of those people or their situations. - and by the way I am making a living playing music, thank you - I started this question not as a complaint but because of a simple statistacal fact. All the cities around the West Coast I used to live in and around and gig in don't have even a sliver of live music that they did have. In the early '70's I lived in tiny towns on the Oregon Coast, Lincoln City, for one; and in this town of 4500 people there were 5 clubs that had live music. Now there are 0. Even smaller nearby towns always had at least one honkytonk with a weekend band, now none. In Portland, same decline, at the Guitar Center in Lynnwood, Washington I asked where I could find a "live band", (didn't ask for any type of music)their exact words: "If there was any live music around here we'd be doing it, not working here". Same story in many West Coast towns. Las Vegas has severely faded out for live music and I don't mean just country. So, I'm glad to know that at least some of you haven't seen this happen in your areas. Yes, trad country definitely is declining. I'm sure there will be artists who will at least keep it alive. For myself, believe it or not I'm finding more work and more appreciation playing around the midwest, specifically the Topeka Kansas area, than in Vegas where I lived 20 years. There is a small theater in a very small town out here where people pay a $10 "ticket" charge to come and listen to 2 sets by a country band every Saturday night. I've sure not seen that around the West Coast. By the way, that band plays old and new country. Anyway, I'm not surprised by the variety of opinions, after all I once asked a bunch of people how my new guitar sounded after a set with a new ax, I got: 1. Too trebly 2.Too bassy 3. Too loud 4. Too quiet 5. Didn't notice it was a different one. I still maintain that live music has declined in SOME AREAS, this is a fact proven by the complete lack of venues which have live music, not some gripe by someone who "can't". |
|
|
|
nick allen
From:
France
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 7:36 am
|
|
Quote:
"those that can make a living playing music do, those that can't get on the fourm and complain about why they can't and how bad the music is."
That SHOULD have been one of Dave Van Allen's "save time by inserting the number" categories... http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-013415.html
Nick[This message was edited by nick allen on 04 January 2002 at 07:37 AM.] |
|
|
|
Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 7:56 am
|
|
| FURTHERMORE... True, arguing over personal viewpoints is pointless and a waste of time. Bringing information, discussion and different perceptions of a situation which matters to all of us, in this case the state of the live music business, I think is not a waste of time, it's one of the things this forum is for, isn't it? |
|
|
|
Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 8:37 am
|
|
| PS. Those clubs I mentioned above that no longer have live music were not just country, in fact most were top-40 rock, blues, jazz. |
|
|
|
Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 8:55 am
|
|
Live music will never be "what it used to be". Music changes with time. Venues change. I think there will always be live music opportunities, though. People like it.
It's too bad that country music in Nashville pays so poorly, though. It's probably related to the glut of talent in that region, making it a buyer's market. Here in Sonoma County, California, the blues bands play for peanuts. Lots of blues musicians.
------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
|
|
|
Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 9:01 am
|
|
| Hi Bobby. Wow, good ol' Sonoma County. Don't know if I ever told you I lived in Santa Rosa in '75-77, played around there in Cotati, Napa, Petaluma, Walnut-something, Concord, Sebastopol, etc. I really loved it out there. |
|
|
|
Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 9:30 am
|
|
Paul, I don't need humor as an excuse because I need no excuse,for anything.You and I get along fine every time we see each other, the only place we ever argue is on this forum in front of an audiance. I need to work on my playing and you need to work on your humor, I 'spose, just an opinion. I think you are a great guy Paul,I'd just like to see a happier side of you and see you lighten up a little. There is no reason to be angry and mean. Be happy, I was leaving you alone on the forum and you attacked me from out of nowhere,just because I agreed with Mike W.-------and you! Gee paul, what do I have to do to let you know that this is A happy world, in genral anyway.Let up on it!
Lets go back to your sister's advice and ignore each other on this forum. Most folks love our debates but I feel you are taking them way to seriously, come on Paul,lets be happy and continue to enjoy our lives.
See you soon Paul,with a smile and a handshake, I hope!
So Paul,I'm throwing down the gauntlet,I'm showing everyone how nice I can be to you and I would like to see you return the courtesy. I'm not being funny or even trying to be,In the spirit of the times, lets show everyone how mature we can be. We both learned diplomicy from Maurice, lets apply it. I'm waiting for your last reply,Best wishes. God love America!
Bobbe
(edited for spelling only) [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 04 January 2002 at 09:33 AM.] |
|
|
|
Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 9:49 am
|
|
Bobby Lee, You nailed it right on the head!Your last post said it all,short and to the point, AND 100% accurate.We could have saved so much time if you would have posted sooner!
Where have you been? Refereeeeeeing fights?
We all appreciate your job, I couldn't do it,Or would I want to.Great forum bOb! I'm going to get the Weirach towell now !
R.K.S. III |
|
|
|
Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 11:05 am
|
|
| It's gonna get even stickier around here if now we start talking about what defines "making a living". That's obviously going to be different for everyone. Surely no one can live on $50 a night gigs or even $100 a night if it's just weekends. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my original question which was basically this: "There used to be lots of clubs with music around the west, now there aren't near as many. Is it the same in your area?" And of course nothing remains "what it used to be". We all know everything changes. Yes, I'm sure there will always be live music, but I still insist that at least in the clubs and lounges there's not as much as there was not too many years ago. Anyone is welcome to disagree and if you do then your area is doing better than most. |
|
|
|
bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 1:24 pm
|
|
Jim, I think your question was a good one and one that we should talk about. But for some reason some one repharsed you question some were along the way. They thought the question was, "what is the state of traditional country music on lower Broadway in Nashville TN." I don't think that was your question? I think this is what got us off topic. I have spent some time in the northwest the past several years and your right a live band is hard to find. One with a steel guitar player is even harder. I wish I had the answer.  |
|
|
|
Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
|
Posted 4 Jan 2002 2:41 pm
|
|
| Hi Bob, yeah you're right it got into a pretty in-depth discussion of Nashville instead of live music in general but that's OK with me, I find it and all the "miscellaneous" extra info very interesting. I just brought up the original question to kinda remind that I didn't intend it as a whining complaint for not being able to get a gig. I can get plenty of gigs and I know we all can but again it was just an observation that there are less venues with live music these days. It's been a very interesting discussion and I've learned a lot about the business in areas that I haven't been to, or been to lately. That's what I asked for, to learn from everyone's vast experience, to consider all the different opinions. I don't think everyone has to agree on everything either, after all everyone has had different experiences at different times and places, with different groups and different people have different ways of looking at things. It would be impossible for everyone to agree on everything, still we all agree that times have changed and will continue to change. We have the choice of adapting ourselves to the changes, or trying to keep alive whatever it is that we love that may be going "out of style". I'm glad to know we have people on both sides try to keep the great traditional country going and also people taking the pedal steel into the new music. I think that's the best guarantee of the instrument's (and pedal-steel players) survival. OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. |
|
|
|
Steve Stallings
From:
Houston/Cypress, Texas
|
Posted 7 Jan 2002 7:34 am
|
|
Whoaaaaaaa! wait just a minute....did I get this right? You guys are getting paid? Sheesh.....and all this time I thought I was supposed to be paying them. Dang....my wife will really love this. She was getting real tired of me paying these clubs every weekend.
BTW...The music scene in central Texas seems to be ok. It really depends on what you are able and willing to play. Since we are a variety (Classic, Current,Rock, Waltz, Polkas and even.... KC and the Sunshine band type stuff(no steel, we do ok on the County Fair, Dance Hall, Wedding, Corporate Party, Street Dance circuit. We are a weekend band. I don't pretend to make a living from this. I personally have not noticed a big change in our area....perhaps because of the multiple venues we play. I don't do this for the money but we do fine...We certainly don't make $500 each like the legendary drummer, but we generally will take home $2-300/gig each. Sometimes more...sometimes less. This weekend, we are playing my favorite dance hall in Texas.
post script....I had typed this on my laptop and didn't submit it. It is now Monday morning and I'm in my office. Saturday night was fun, but we played for a percentage of the door (70%) and weather was crummy and turnout not as good as usual. We only had 180 paid at $5 each for $900. Of course we then got $630 divided seven ways. This is my favorite hall and we usually get 3-400 folks.
It is the only place we play for a percentage. Not much money for a 225 mile roundtrip....but it was fun.
We rotated in two songs....you guys might get a kick out of the balancing "karma" of these two songs. 1. Crazy Arms 2. Brick House (Disco like tune... She's a brick house...)
------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
|
|
|
|
Joe Casey
From:
Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)
|
Posted 7 Jan 2002 7:56 am
|
|
The answer to jims question has been right there in front of all of us.What Music hasn't changed? Rock has evolved into several different types. Jazz and Blues Has found new dimensions. I guess the only thing that is hard to change is US.As different generations come along they perhaps are influence by what we liked but as we did we want to take it a step beyond.We can stay the same but we can never go back. We can still do what we like but lets face it it just isn't our day anymore.No one ever held us back but ourselves.
------------------
CJC
|
|
|
|
Richard Bass
From:
Sabang Beach, Philippines
|
Posted 7 Jan 2002 1:27 pm
|
|
Joe, I believe you hit the nail right on the head. Couldn't agree more.
Richard |
|
|
|
Pat Burns
From:
Branchville, N.J. USA
|
Posted 7 Jan 2002 2:18 pm
|
|
| ...indeed. Imagine the ruckus raised by the hollow log beaters when one of them stretched an animal skin over one end and got a different sound... |
|
|
|
Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
|
Posted 7 Jan 2002 3:45 pm
|
|
I agree with those who are open to more than just C/W....everything else is not crap....
I wonder how many people won't watch TV now than Gunsmoke has gone off the air...... a great old traditional TV show.....
Bad analogy?? Hmmm thnk about it....
Open up your ears to other music genres and who knows you may find something else you like.......
This forum should be called the Country and Western Steel Guitar Forum......
Don't get me wrong I love Ray Price and Buck Owens but check out a John Coltrane, Mike Stern or Pat Martino record..or even......you name it there is more to music.....and the Pedal Steel Guitar..
over and out
|
|
|
|
