Broilers vs real artists

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 10 Dec 2001 7:08 pm

Real music is made by people who are really making it?

The concept of what is real music is just too weird to even go into. The fact that we buy something that is pieced together as a song is in itself a recreation of a moment that actually did not exist, so what's so real about that.
Someone who records a song directly is a way of getting aroud this scenario, but for one it relies on everyone being able to get it right which is costly and generally doesn't always allow for the best studio sound. This of course is where taste comes into it, plus some music is near impossible to produce live in the studio. Electronic musin is made by people, so it's real, but can't always be replicate live, does this make it less real.

Then, if someone who has a live act adds a bell, siren, keyboard fill or a filtering effect than they cannot reproduce live, then is that a rip-off for anyone seeing the band live?

Modern country is really not my cup of tea, although there are some good ideas and soungs out there and I do really like Wayne Hancock and Dale Watson, those guys are retro-twangers. They're working on a sound from the past, whether or not they have modernised a bit is a matter of opinion, updating an older sound might actually be betraying it to some people.

Think of Bluegrass msuic, it's still going fairly strong, and when we consider that it's general sound was defined in the 1945-1948 period then re-defined in the mid 1950s by Flatt & Scruggs (they added a dobro to the classic guitar/fiddle/string bass/banjo/mandolin format); and later by a series of group in the 1960s and 1970s, although the latter met with a lot less commercial success, so the 1940s and 1950s sounds which was pretty much commercially dead by 1962 is still the classic sound.
We have in effect a time machine of sorts, a society of fans and pickers who have constructed a time bubble away from modern music and the evolution of musical genres.
A modern bluegrass band is often constructed within thos defined style parameters and rarely strays outside those defined boundries. If they dso, they may no longer be considered a bluegrass band as such.

The concept of "pure country" is a relative one, some may consider it Bluegrass (although with all the folks who despise banjo on this forum, I don't think they'd number too highly here), others might say Ernest Tubb (but which era?), the 1950s (some might lean towards rockabilly, others towards Webb Pierce, Left Frizzell, etc.. but what of the Nashville Sound?), then there's the 1960s, (but.. West Coast, Nashville Pop, country-rock?)... then waht about the old timey crowd, or the people who like Jimmie Rogers, the Cowboy stuff, or even Woody Guthrie. I think it's safe to say that most country fans despise Guthrie!

One thing I have to say about modern country is that they are trying to sell records, which is exactly what Bill Monroe, the Carter Family, Johnny Cash, Waylon Jennings, roy Acuff, Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, George Jones, Jean Shepard, Cal Smith, Dave Dudley and a lot of others were trying to do, despite the fact that they were replacing an older style of music that went before them.

Mind you, I do find that line-dancing seems to be a way of surrendering one's individual nature while also taking away the whole point of having an actual live band. How can you enjoy something that you need to be just a certain style so you can co-ordinate a series of moves in time with everyone else?
Of course... none of you have seen me do the 'Funky Chicken'.. now that's an experience.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Dec 2001 3:46 pm

We live in a world of opposites. There are opposites to everything. So, when someone says "There's no such thing as bad music", they're also admitting (somewhat unknowingly) that there's no such thing as good music.

Think!
Have an opinion!
Stand for something!

Let's not all become "The Stepford Musicians".

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 12 Dec 2001 5:51 pm

Well Donny I like bands like Fudgetunnel, the Dwarves, the Cosmic Psychos, Nunbait, the Melvins, Napalm Death (the early stuff ifyou must know), the Birthday Part, Black Flag, the Butthole Surfers, Flipper, Sonic Youth, Big Black, Rapeman and quite a few others that I think are fantastic bands, for various reasons.

Now, somehow I don't think there would be too many other Forum members who would put these under good music, yet I think that they're fantastic.
For ages I've been bagging and bitching about the so-called commercial producers, my complaints are usually about the lack of indiviuality, but for a lot of people this stuff is the real deal.
And I have to admit, some of my favourite performers have recorded some pretty ordinary material over the years.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Dec 2001 6:28 pm

Exactly, Jason! At least you have an opinion, and are not afraid to express it. Now, nd while we're at it...in your opinion, what makes a "fantastic" band?

Jeff Evans · Post by **Jeff Evans** » 12 Dec 2001 7:15 pm

Milli Vanilli...now there was a band!

Clearly you're delusional, Donny, since you seem to think qualitative distinctions can be made between...anything. Stop offending us with your unnecessary value judgements or we'll all have to abandon the Forum in a huff.
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Jeff
Stepford Musician on the Nashville Mushroom Farm

kyle reid · Post by **kyle reid** » 12 Dec 2001 10:46 pm

Donny! I like your value judgements, because they are correct! Can you get Jeffs last paragraph in writing!

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 13 Dec 2001 1:36 am

One thing has puzzled me a lot; what is the time frame or limit when music changes from "retro" to modern or from old to new. Is it fifty years, one year, two days or five weeks??? Some of my favorite contemporary bands are called "retro", cause they play the style, that was popular in the 50's, yet most of their material is original. Then again pop music and rock-bands, that draw their style from music of the 60's and 70's or 80's are rarely, if ever called "retro" in the media. Why???? And I've never heard anyone call Bob Brozman's music "retro". Is Hank Thompson's new album, with plenty of original tunes done in familiar HT-style, retro? Is it modern music at all???

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 13 Dec 2001 8:05 am

Poor Anders, what have we done to his simple post supporting Dale over the tight pants guy?
I'm outa here!

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 13 Dec 2001 2:07 pm

I agree completely that the appreciation of music is subjective. What's good to me may make some other guy wretch, and what he likes may bore me to sleep. (Hey, I could use more sleep....) When I hear "new" country songs on country radio I sometimes like them, sometimes not. I don't necessarily know why. Same goes for traditional country. People have been trying for just about forever to define what makes music appealing from an objective standpoint--with limited success. If we all knew what made music appealing and therefore what elements made for "good" or "great" music, somebody somewhere could write at least one song that everybody on Earth would love, for all time. But nobody has done that. (Have they? Close, maybe.... "Amazing Grace," "Yesterday," "Louie Louie".

)

I think it all boils down to taste. And one's tastes are formed by a complex process of exposure to various musical forms during one's life, and one's personal brain wiring. Some of us have been molded into a country-lovin' mode, and even in that place we find a lot of lattitude in tastes.

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Bill (steel not out of the woodshed) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 13 Dec 2001 3:50 pm

What puzzles me is why anyone would personally care what type of music another person liked or disliked, other than to validate their own opinions.

Hey, I play traditional country. Not that it's anyone's business, but I'd rather listen to Travis Tritt or Tracy Lawrence from 1995 than Eddy Arnold from 1965. And, I'm really not bothered if someone thinks I have my head up my ass for my preferences. Lots of folks like Eddy from that period and that's copacetic with me.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Dec 2001 7:10 pm

Well, Jeff thinks I'm delusional.

That's OK...at least he has an opinion. It doesn't offend me (I've been called a lot worse by a lot better). The point is, and Herb touched on this, that different people like different things. I could care less what anybody likes, but I would like to see them to do it with passion, with emotion, with feeling, and with conviction. Don't be namby-pamby and say "It's all equal, it's all good, everything is wonderful!" Bullhockey!!! Music is an art form...it's just like painting. Not an artist, or a critic, or a art teacher in the world will tell you "All art is good"!

Some is great, some is good, and some is crappy.

Music is no different.

If you can't (or won't) make a distinction, don't get miffed when someone else does.

Frank · Post by **Frank** » 16 Dec 2001 6:35 am

Way to go Donny, short,concise and to the point.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 16 Dec 2001 11:06 pm

I personally despise line dancing. It reminds me of hours of close order drill I had to do in the military. I can't say that I hate it though (hate = Despise squared

)
If nothing else you can watch the women. Of course some of them couldn't make out with a thousand dollar bill in their hand in a men's state prison.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 17 Dec 2001 8:48 am

Donny: Jeff Evans paraphrased your last comment above in his intro to Reggie Duncan's White Christmas also here in Music. I knew I had seen it already so I went looking for it and found it here. Every so often someone says something that rings a bell for me and you did that.

I see it may have also rang a bell for I hope; a lot of others. Your words should really be chiseled in stone. They speak highly of you and your outlook but then I knew that, didn't I ??

Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 17 December 2001 at 08:52 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 21 Dec 2001 10:56 am

Donny,
I have plenty of opinions about what music I like or dislike. My point is that within all catagories of music there are some performers that absolutly suck and some that are great. If you want some big subjective pointless judgements here you go:

1.The band Alabama really does suck.

2.Later period Buck Owens blatent pandering to trends and use of corney puns made him seem retarded.

3. Women choreographers in modern dance make most chick singers seem reasonable and sane.

4. If your step father is into opera and spends his evenings at the gym you might want to have a talk with your mother.

Bob

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 21 Dec 2001 1:38 pm

To me there are to kinds of music, good and bad.
Most good music to me is the "honest" music, this has nothing to do with technical or "musical "level, but with real or faked emotion. The emotion-faking sucks, so to me that is the bad music. JJ

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STEELDAYS 2002
my web-site
my bands CODand TSC

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 Dec 2001 6:43 pm

Thanks Bob! Now I understand you better!

And......strangely enough.....I do agree with at least two of your statements.

But, as to the matter of "pointless subjective opinions", that's an oxymoron. You see, opinions are always subjective. But sometimes, there's a grain of genius in even the most superficial of observations.