Help Identifying Cherokee Cowboys

JoeB · Post by **JoeB** » 16 Sep 2001 10:26 pm

Hello folks,

I just scored a great Ray Price CD on the Jasmine label called "In a Honky Tonk Mood".

The liner notes are "fun" but don't identify the actual date of the recording or who the players are.The tunes and players are fantastic!

It was recorded on a radio show Red Foley hosted in the early/mid-fities(?). Anyone out there know, for sure, who the players are or where to get the info?

Thanks in advance.

Joe

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Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 17 Sep 2001 3:28 am

JoeB,
I just bought that cd too. On the first cuts 1-4 it's Don Helms on steel, from "City Lights" to "Back Up And Push" it's Jack Evins and Jimmy Day on rest of the tracks. Tough to say about the other musicians for sure, but I think they were pretty much the same than on the "official" recordings of the same era. Tommy Jackson, Red Hayes and Shorty Lavender on fiddle, Pete Wade on guitar etc. Recordings on the Jasmine cd are from -54 to -61 which makes it hard to identify them all. Good reference is the discography on the Bear Family box set. Jasmine cd is a nice addition to it and the sound quality is excellent. For those forumites, who don't want the massive box, the Jasmine cd will be a great buy. Classic honky tonk with lotsa beautiful steel work. Couple of songs there too, that Ray never recorded commercially.
Hope this helped!

Jussi

Kenny Forbess · Post by **Kenny Forbess** » 17 Sep 2001 7:03 am

Hey Guy's,
Have you noticed how up-to-date the guys in the foreign country's are, on the music that was recorded here in the States ?
I think that's really great,
hats off to them.
Kenny

JoeB · Post by **JoeB** » 17 Sep 2001 9:24 am

Thanks Jussi,

That response was very informative! I guess I'll just have to keep saving my pennies and buy that Bear box set. It seems like everytime I need to find out more about Ray Price, I'm always pointed to that same resource.

Speaking of informed non-U.S. music listeners, I don't think they come any more informed than the good Richard of Bear Family records. Man, he's amassed an awesome amount of information regarding various American (and International) roots music.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 17 Sep 2001 5:23 pm

If it goes as late as 1961, then the band might include Jimmy Day (steel), Willie Nelson (bass), Donny Young (bass), Roger Miller (vocals), Wade Ray (fiddle), Johnny Bush (drums), Van Howard and various others, let alone the mid 1950s group which was might range from Tommy Hill (guitar), Jimmy Bigger (steel guitar), Bernie Annett (piano)and one of the Hayes brothers (Little Red or Big Red?).
Technically the Drifting Cowboys related era of Don Helms and the others actually pre-date the Cherokee Cowboys name, which Price apparently didn't start using until he hired a version of the Western Cherokees from Texas into his group.
I'd love some other input on this as a lot of this is just me guessing and borrowing from various notes and books.

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 17 Sep 2001 9:15 pm

Jason,
You're absolutely right with all those names and I believe they're all playing on the Jasmine cd. Except maybe not Johnny Bush. The drummer before him in -60-61 was Steve Bess. Name all the Cherokee Cowboys from that era, and you'll probably have 30-40 names. But the most interesting one I think, is the steel player Jack Evins. He replaced Jimmy Day for few months in late -56-57 and is featured on surprisingly many recordings, including the hit "Invitation To The Blues". Probably the most interesting point from a steelplayer's view is, that he played all those classic E9 licks with a quad Fender Stringmaster, that had pedals added on it!! Whatever happened to him after his stint with the Cherokee Cowboys?? Anybody?
JoeB, the Bear-box is great if you're a hardcore Ray Price fan ( like myself )and the book is fantastic. The other worth getting is the Hank Thompson set. Of course you have to come up with lot of greens!

Jussi

Kenny Forbess · Post by **Kenny Forbess** » 18 Sep 2001 6:13 am

Jason I know you already know this , but for the restwho don't, Donnie young is non other than Johnny Paycheck.
Kenny

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 18 Sep 2001 8:48 am

I have a Ray Price album "The Essential Ray Price" reissued by Columbia Country Classics.

It covers recordings from 3/15/51 (If You're Ever Lonely Darling) to 1/7/62 (Pride). The early ones sound like Don Helms on steel and the later ones sound like Jimmy Day.

According to the liner notes, the earlier recordings up to 7/8/55 (including I'll Be Ther and Release Me) were done with the Drifting Cowboys band - Steel: Don Helms, Lead guitar: Sammy Pruett, Fiddle: Jerry Rivers and Bass: Cedric Rainwater.

Also, according to the notes, Crazy Arms was written by Ralph Mooney and he is doing the solo break on that song.

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 19 Sep 2001 12:48 am

On "Crazy Arms" it's Jimmy Day playing a four neck Wright Custom, his first pedal steel. Two other songs from that session were "You Done Me Wrong" and "Wild And Wicked World" But yes, Ralph Mooney wrote "Crazy Arms".

Jussi

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 19 Sep 2001 1:48 am

Wow, cool posts everyone, Kenny, thanks for the mention on Young/Paycheck, I meant to mention that.
Jussi, too cool, I'd love to sit around and spin some records and CDs with you someday, but that goes for most of the Forum too!
Might have to talk Hank Thompson later as well.

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 19 Sep 2001 4:40 am

Jason,
You're welcome, although I'm a new member, I've been following the forum for a long time and always enjoy your posts. Love to talk Hank Thompson with you, our band just backed him up this July on a big c&w festival in France. He's still very cool, mind still sharp as a razor. It was one of the biggest thrills for me to play steel next to him.

Jussi

JoeB · Post by **JoeB** » 19 Sep 2001 6:02 am

There is a spitload of great info here - Thanks gents! It just goes to show you: ask a good question...

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 19 Sep 2001 3:36 pm

re Johnny Paycheck aka; Donny Young, his real name is George Litel.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Tele · Post by **Tele** » 24 Nov 2001 2:11 pm

Jussi, you never told me about backing up HT !!! wow you met my all-time favourite singer, any photos ??

Andy

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1962 Sho~Bud D-10 : 1969 Emmons D-10 : Bigsby T-8: 1959 Gibson Super 400CES :1957 Standel 25L15
about me
My steels

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 24 Nov 2001 6:30 pm

Kenny,
He was born,"Don Lytle",in Greenfield,Oh.,in 1941.

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Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 24 Nov 2001 11:36 pm

Tommy Jackson also played fiddle for Ray Price about '56. I think he is on "Crazy Arms" I have a video of "City Lights" from around 1962 with Emmons on steel and Tommy Jackson on fiddle. Great thread. Jody.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 25 Nov 2001 5:57 pm

Latter members are interesting too.
Julian Tharpe, bandleader Blondie, Phil Baugh (who joined in December '69 with Dale Bennett, both of whom had decided to split L.A. after the ill fated country club owned by Dick Clark failed to compete finacially with the Palomino Club in Nth Hollywood).
And lets not forget that some forumites played with Price, including Junior Knight who was his guitar slinger for a stint in '67.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 25 Nov 2001 7:08 pm

Of course steel is my first interest but I can't forget Darrell McCall on Bass and singing up front to intro Ray Price. I even sent a picture of them in France to Bobbe for his collection. Class Act all the way !!

Regards, Paul

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 26 Nov 2001 8:40 pm

A drummer friend back in the heyday of Ray Price used to use a brush in his right hand to play the shuffle beat and a stick in his left hand laid across the snare to hit a rim shot on two and four. It sure sounded good in those days, but was it ever actually played that way on recordings?

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 26 Nov 2001 11:42 pm

Ken, it sure was done that way on the recordings. Nashville session drummer Buddy Harman came up with that style for the shuffle beat. Harman states in a recent interview, that on the early sessions in the 50's, he was often using only a snare, because the producers didn't allow him to bring in a full kit. It all changed, when they started recording alot of rockabilly and rock'n'roll in Nashville.
The Cherokee Cowboy-drummer on that early tv-clip is Steve Bess. When he left, Johnny Bush was hired on drums.
Jussi

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 30 Nov 2001 9:56 am

What about Johnny Gimble?Wasn't he in the group at one time? Jason and Jussi I would bet you guy's know.
Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 2 Dec 2001 11:34 pm

Ray, I can't remember Johnny Gimble being mentioned as a Cherokee Cowboy, but of course it's possible he did shows with Ray. However Wade Ray was in a band in the mid 60's and is featured on the Cherokee Cowboys' album "Western Strings"( steel by Emmons ). I believe the fiddle player on the tv-clip I mentioned, is Shorty Lavender.
Regards,
Jussi

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 3 Dec 2001 10:05 am

I don't think Gimble was with Ray, it's never really mebtioned in any Gimble articles or interviews I've read, plus Gimble was more active around the Frizzell nexus of performers in the early to mid 1950s, you know Jim Beck Studios and all that.
He later had a series of TV gigs and stuff, then he did the Nashville thing on the 1960s where he got to play on top #40 sessions, pop country you name it, then of course the whole 1970s swing revival and he worked swing, progressive country gigs and so on.
I imagine he did some gigs with Price, but never as a full-time CC. At least in my humble opinion.
Actually if anyone is out there who talks to Johnny G. on a regular basis, can you ask him to think about a more detailed biography on his website, it would be so cool.