Pedal Steel in Bluegrass and Acoustic music?

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 26 Oct 2001 1:47 pm

The thread on Ricky Skaggs made me reflect on the place of the pedal steel within bluegrass and folk music. As to bluegrass, the dobro is the accepted bearer of the steel tradition. Even though Paul Franklin Sr. made the beautiful Pedabro, it never caught on in bluegrass to my knowledge. I know that the genre is ruled by more tradition than most, but an acoustic-resonator style pedal steel would sound great in bluegrass IMHO. Maybe to pickers in that community the pedals make it as un-bluegrassy as a hurdy-gurdy or oud.
For a while the folk-pop scene had a lot of steel- Gordon Lightfoot, James Taylor, Neil Young. The sound of the pedal steel that we know and love blended well with that music. It seems that after the MTV unplugged events started happening, the pedal steel just couldn't go there. I would love to hear a pedal steel that actualy sounds like an acoustic guitar. It might find it's way into more music and expand the instrument's reach even farther. Or it might end up as a niche sound like the Pedabro. What do you think?
T. Sage Harmos

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 26 Oct 2001 4:10 pm

No, no, Sage. Sorry. Can't do that. Haven't you ever heard of "equal time", "Quid pro quo", or "one hand washes the other"?

If we start puttin' pedal steel in bluegrass, then (sooner or later) somebody's gonna throw a b@nj0 in a Johnny Bush song, or a Ray Price song.

Now, do you see what I mean? (Best to leave well enough alone!)

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 26 Oct 2001 4:45 pm

Patrick Ickes · Post by **Patrick Ickes** » 26 Oct 2001 5:56 pm

Too late Donny,
If you recall, Ray Price had a big hit with "Can't go home like this", and it featured a BANJO lead .
Stop with the banjo jokes or the Sheriff's going to find you one morning leaning over your guitar and your throat cut with a G string.
You have been warned!
God bless Earl Scruggs and J.D. Crowe
Pat

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 26 Oct 2001 7:44 pm

If you all would go to the Dillard's
album called "WHEATSTRAW SUITE" and listen to the master, B.Emmons, on "LITTLE PETE"
and the Beatle's "I'VE JUST SEEN A FACE",
then you will know, once and for all, that the steel fits in beautifully in bluegrass;
of course, however, in the proper hands.
PLEASE...listen to Buddy here. If you can't find the album [and it's hard now to find],
I'll try to set up my turntable and somehow
get it so you can here this. I'll send you a
cassette recording if I can't get it onto the PC. Let me know. I just love turning folks onto this great album. Buddy cooks, but in a real laid-back way. You gotta hear
it, to believe it.
CF

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 26 Oct 2001 11:52 pm

The Osborn Bros. used pedal steel on some of their stuff...

Tim R.

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 27 Oct 2001 8:59 am

I'd love to hear a hollow-body pedal steel guitar.

Gregg Galbraith · Post by **Gregg Galbraith** » 27 Oct 2001 9:34 am

Bill,
The Franklin Ped-a-bro fits your description quite nicely.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 27 Oct 2001 9:54 am

Patrick
Price certainly cut "Can't Go Home Like This" with Earl on banjo (though I'm not sure how big a "hit" it was), but that was in his earlier "hillbilly" period when he was basically a Hank Williams clone and had not yet developed the sound popularized by his later Cherokee Cowboys band, nor had he yet developed his own vocal style.

By the late 50s/early 60s, when his sound was dominated by Pete Wade and Grady on guitar, Tommy Jackson, Buddy Spicher, and Shorty Lavender on fiddle and Buddy and Jimmy on steel, the banjo was definitely not a contribution. IMHO, these were the pickers that created the "Ray Price Sound" that we generally all recognize.

Hey, in that period, Ray also cut some real schlocky pop-sounding stuff too, long before the "Danny Boy" era. Most of that material never got beyond album-filler status.

As a parenthetical aside, and as a former bluegrasser, I feel that the playing of mid-50s Earl Scruggs and Don Reno is still the defining sound of the instrument, as great as the contributions of JD Crowe, Bill Keith, Allan Shelton, and a host of other pickers were. Just my personal opinion of BG banjo...

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 27 October 2001 at 10:57 AM.]

Bob Knetzger · Post by **Bob Knetzger** » 27 Oct 2001 10:31 am

Yeah, the Dillards stuff has great steel (but it was actually Rodney Dillard trying the pedal steel on the one tune "Little Pete", and really his take was not too different from Jerry Garcia's "Teach Your Children" steel; super simple, almost cliche, but very, very effective in its execution. Don't really wanna start *this* thread again, tho..)

An even better example, and unlike the Wheatstraw Suite, one that the purist bluegrass world *embraces* is JD Crowe's New South 1st album. It's got it all: JD's driving banjo, Tony Rice's fabulous singing and guitar playing, Ricky Skaggs, great material, etc., but also and completely unmentioned in the liner notes and credits: pedal steel and drums!! And it's great! For those steel players that look down on 'grass and banjos (even with a wink), why not give this a listen...and go easy on your fellow fingerpick wearers.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Oct 2001 3:22 pm

That Emmons guy (Buddy who?

) also did some killer steel on Benny Martin's "We all smell good on Sunday" If we can get more steel into Bluegrass, there will be less room for that barn-joe.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 27 Oct 2001 4:23 pm

Bob K,
I beg to differ. In the archives of this Forum, I posed the question to Buddy as to what kind of guitar he was playing on "Little
Pete". It's chronicled. Buddy said it was a burgundy D-10 Emmons [I was trying to find out if it was an early Fender etc., because of the tone...that's why Emmons is so great..he can make stretched chicken guts sound like a symphony].
Buddy told me he is the steeler of record on "Little Pete", and so, that's fine with me.
It's here in the archives. Check her out.
CF

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 27 Oct 2001 11:45 pm

How about Doug Jernigan on Vassar Clement`s "Bluegrass Sessions"? Amazing steel,blends well.It`s on the Flying Fish label,released in the mid-70s,I guess.
BTW,at BG festivals the PSG wouldn`t be very "parking lot picking friendly"

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Olli Haavisto
Polar steeler
Finland

[This message was edited by Olli Haavisto on 28 October 2001 at 12:48 AM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 28 Oct 2001 2:03 pm

The Seldom Scene has made effective and tasteful use of the pedal steel on a couple of their studio albums. I can't remember the name of the album with "A Song for Life" on it; maybe "Act ll" ?
It's interesting that, although the Scene's dobroist Mike Auldridge is also a steeler, I don't believe he did those steel parts.
I should also mention - during my day as a hard-core bluegrasser, I held a great disdain for any instrument which had to be plugged in. I'm still not sure I'd be comfortable with it in that setting.
Herb, buddy, while I respect JD's smooth playing, I don't know if I'd call it a "contribution" (?) as much as giving him credit for a respectful homage to Earl The Great. Bill Keith, now that's a different kettle of fish.

That was a contribution!
-John

GORDY NICHOL · Post by **GORDY NICHOL** » 2 Nov 2001 2:37 pm

Back in the '60s,the Osborne Bros. used steel alot (Hal Rugg).That was part of their "signature sound". Remember that Rocky Top had steel all throughout.(A #1 bluegrass song in my part of the woods!)I understand that Sonny is a closet steeler.Check out the "Rubeeeeeeee" album.An old Wilborn Bros.song,"Somebody's Back In Town".As good as any shuffle I've heard!!!!!

Joel Glassman · Post by **Joel Glassman** » 8 Nov 2001 10:49 am

Bob K--
Jerry Douglas played dobro on that JD Crowe album.(I don't remember steel on there, but if there is, maybe it's him?)
-Joel[This message was edited by Joel Glassman on 08 November 2001 at 10:51 AM.]

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 8 Nov 2001 12:34 pm

Maybe I missed it if it was mentioned above, but Jim & Jesse's new CD is really a bunch of country shuffles with a bluegrass flavor, if that makes any sense...

Anyway, Jeff Newman plays some great steel on this CD, and he's all over it. Highly recommended....

Bob Hayes · Post by **Bob Hayes** » 12 Nov 2001 2:19 am

Blue Grassers Jim & Jessie and the Virginia Boys were realy HOT in the Late '60's early 70's. I did a show with them at Watermelon Park in Winchester ,Va some time back then. The ushad a great steel player. I'm not sure ..but I think he was Doug Jernagin..Also on the bill was Jeanne Shepard, and the Stoneman Family. I askes Ronnie Stoneman if they were playing a special type of Blue Grass. She said YES, STONE MUSIC!!!!. I was a little slow in those days..come to think about it ..I haven't speed ed up much....I think I was playing {or tying to play) guitar then with Oscar Shields. You D.C. guys know him.

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 12 Nov 2001 2:28 am

Oscar Shields: Celestial recording artist, aka, The Shilo Playboy, or was that the name of the other pickers in his band. Tommy Hannum picked with him too. I had the distant honor to follow in Tommy's footsteps. What a pleasure it was!
Gary Lee

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 22 Nov 2001 9:12 am

Hey Gordy,
The Osborne brothers record of Rocky Top was from the double album called "From Rocky Top to Muddy Bottom" which featured Buddy Emmons on steel. It was the songs of Felice and Boudleaux Bryant.

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Have a good 'un! JH U-12

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 22 November 2001 at 09:13 AM.]

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 22 Nov 2001 3:28 pm

Bob,
The Jim & Jesse sessions were w/ Lloyd Green.
I did some TV shows w/ J. & J.,back in the late '60's. Don't know where they went,but sure would like to find 'em. (the tv shows,that is.)

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©¿© ars longa,
mm vita brevis
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[This message was edited by Smiley Roberts on 24 November 2001 at 06:50 PM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 22 Nov 2001 5:17 pm

Ahem.. some shows with Jim & Jessie, oh my I must hear more on that Smiley...please.

As far as I understand it, J&J began to incorporate steel once they began to work the Opry on a regular basis (circa '64?), at first I think their dobro player started to double on steel, while on televised gigs etc they used full-time steelers, hence Smiley.

Later they added steel players as part of the group, something they dropped around the late 1970s I believe.

In regards to the Osborne Bros, for a time Sonny used a sliding bending note 'trick' to effect steel licks, I'm not sure how he achieved it, but it's been mentioned in some articles on the group's attempt to crack the charts in the 1960s.
Obviously it became easier to hire steel players for sessions, but they still had to do something live to fill the part.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 24 Nov 2001 4:32 am

I'd love to hear a hollow-body pedal steel guitar.

Paul Franklin Sr made an acoustic, non resonator one. It was on display at the convention a few years ago. I don't know if he ever made any more.