I apologize for my poor timing

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 9 Jul 2001 11:50 am

I thought that since we were talking about Chet it was appropriate to discuss his entire impact, both positive and negative. I certainly did not intend to diss him personally. I have tremendous respect for him as a guitar player (and I wish I could play half as well myself.)

Nor did I mean any personal disrespect toward Anita Kerr as a human being, although my opinion of her work remains unchanged.

I apologize to those who took offense.

But I must say, I'm quite disappointed that some people reacted with such anger and hostility. It's one thing to say "I disagree with you" or "I think you're wrong" and quite another to wish somebody grief.

This forum should be a place where we can all express our opinions without having to worry about such things. There will always be people here who do not agree with each other, but we should all treat each other with respect regardless.

I hope that in the future when somebody expresses an unorthodox opinion, be it me or anybody else, that people react in a more civilized manner.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 9 Jul 2001 1:33 pm

Mike,

I have not read the other thread, but I'm sure if it was your opinion then it was wrong or at lease somewhat misguided.

Oops! Sorry, Mike. That was a throwback from my OTB days and our political discussions.

Just kidding... and I share your wishes on "freedom of expresssion", as we call it.

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HagFan

TomP · Post by **TomP** » 9 Jul 2001 1:47 pm

Michael-
I think you're a wonderful human bean. As I was starting to reply again, though, I remembered you being the one who posted about Jerry Garcia and the HOF question. Then it dawned on me that maybe you were just prone to stirring up a good discussion/argument. That's good and healthy for the most part. Inspiring folks to use their noodle and all that. It was surprising to me that someone with such an eclectic catalog themselves would come out jumping all over CHET ATKINS for not adhereing to some sort of traditional set of country production values. I'm sure had Leonard Bernstein been living he (not the Bernstein Foundation, of course) would have applauded your version of WSS, instead of wondering "Why didn't he get Chet Atkins to put strings on it?" I'm not sure my point is clear here, even to me, but it has something to do with good for the goose being good for the gander. Oh well. See you next time.

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-Tom www.tompowell.org

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 10 Jul 2001 4:18 am

OK.

How about "I hope your dog gets sick and then makes a full recovery". Better?

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 10 Jul 2001 10:38 am

Good thing you didn't say anything bad about Chet's dog. Sheesh.

You better like everything everyone else likes hear, or keep you trap shut, I guess. Interesting.

All I gotta say is, everyone does good things and bad things in their lives, at least in terms of how others may interpret them. Are you off the hook because you die?

Mike didn't like Chet's Countrypolitan production style. He decided to discuss it here. BIG DEAL. Chet's in a better place playing music with all the legends who've passed before. I'm sure this world is the last thing on his mind. Too much pettiness here.

Dan Hatfield · Post by **Dan Hatfield** » 10 Jul 2001 2:32 pm

Mr. Perlowin:

In your very first post of the thread you created you used the following language directed at the work of both Chet and the Anita Kerr singers: "Hate, lame, dull, lifeless, phoney, dishonest, and utterly devoid of any musical value". And now you are accusing other people of being less than civilized? Stop your whining, buddy, you are making me ill.

Dan Hatfield

HOWaiian · Post by **HOWaiian** » 10 Jul 2001 5:12 pm

Mike-

Your timing might've been poor, but I think that you were pretty clear in your opinions in your original post; they certainly didn't sound to me like a personal attack on Chet.

I think the operative word implicit in all of the posts is: SCHMALTZ.

a certain degree of schmaltz in any music is perfectly acceptable (to me, at least: heck, even Black Sabbath & Led Zep got schmaltzy from time to time) & might even contribute to an overall esthetic sensibility. But to slather it on a musical form which is by definition earthy and (to a point) gritty, with only a LCD in mind (mass appeal/higher sales volume), is to do a disservice to the music. It is also, as you say, in bad taste.

Let's put it this way: imagine those "countrypolitan" production numbers as being exactly the same, but without the schmaltzy strings & background vocals. Would they sell as well? Maybe, maybe not. But they'd sure be easier for me to listen to.

On a side note: George Jones sings through his nose? George Jones? GEORGE JONES??!?!?? IMHO, the evolution of the human male throat stops with this man (it stops with Aretha Franklin's, on the female side).

Just my you-know-what.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 10 Jul 2001 6:49 pm

Mr, Hatfield, I see you like to quote.
Okay, ....you wrote

You shouldn't be so narrow minded to accept only pseudo singers such as Buck Owens, Willie Nelson, George Jones etc, who have perfected the "moaning through the nose" trick.

Did you check that none of those singers or their offspring read the forum, your personal opinion might have offended them.
Of course you said that there were times when you liked to listen to them, so you're admiting that it comes down to taste, but when it's your opinion and taste it's okay, but when it's Mikes and doesn't meet with yours it's not?

Mike made this post to make amends and here we go again, is this what it's come down to?
I'm not saying that this is your opinion Dan Hatfield, but I've noticed a lot of people slagging off rock, punk and modern country on this forum and despite the fact that some people on the forum actually work in these genres I've not seen anyone take it so personally. Okay your mother was mention, but it wasn't a personal slur, or one about her abilities, just the style that she was part of.

That's called an opinion, it's okay to disagree and you certainly didn't get insulting like some of the others who thought that Mike was attacking Chet.
I figure you have a right to get fired up, but having said that you could try burying the hatchet someplace besides Mike's head.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Jul 2001 8:18 pm

Don't feel too bad, Mike. I've unintentionally offended people here, too. Sometimes we tend to forget the "scope" of the FORUM, and how many people read it. No matter what you say here, (in the form of an opinion, or something you believe) there's a chance it might offend someone.

Now, a lot of people here lately have been mentioning the word "tact". And that's something most all of us forget occasionally. Sometimes we say something that's taken the wrong way, and had we rephrased it, it might not have been considered "tactless" by some readers. But tact applies two ways...from the point of view of the poster, and from the point of view of the reader.

Now, if someone posts something in what we consider an untactful way, are we not being untactful ourselves if we draw attention to the statement, and then belittle the person making the comments? I think that we are, but that's just my opinion. Part of coexistence is acceptance. We are not always going to agree, and this is not Sunday school, or a "feel-good" program. It is a forum...that elicits opinions, as well as stories, facts, and assistance. Let us listen, and accept what the others say, even if we do not agree. We can offer opposing points of view, but without the namecalling and insults that only invite retribution.

Our opinions are, for us, reality; and they can seldom be changed. Let's all try to be a little more tolerant of each other's viewpoints, and not consider each differing opinion a "personal insult". In the words of Voltaire...

I disapprove of what you are saying, but I will defend until death your right to say it.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 Jul 2001 8:45 pm

That's it! That's the last straw! As soon as somebody starts quoting VOLTAIRE on a freakin' steel guitar forum... well, i just don't know what this world is coming to! Anyone for Kant? Nietsche? How 'bout Sartre? Surely they had an opinion about Perlowin's sense of tact, or on the future of country music! Come on guys, don't hold back, let's have it! I WANNA GET PHILOSOPHICAL![This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 11 July 2001 at 01:41 PM.]

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 10 Jul 2001 9:31 pm

Maybe we can talk Scotty into sponsoring some Grudge matches at the convention this year, some of these hotheads can duke it out the old fashioned way, with fists. These new countrypolitan forum arguments are too tame, we need some real action. There could be an admission charge and the proceeds would go to the Hall of Fame.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 Jul 2001 10:36 pm

Thanks for all the support everybody. I appreciate it. I've receved quite a bit of E-mail about this. Some supportive, some critical. I may have angered some people but I've also made a few friends.

Dan, it's true I used the words you said I did. but when I used the word hate, it applied to a certain style of music, not to anybody personally. I understand that you love your mother and are upset over my opinion of her work. But that's it is: my opinion of her work, not of who she was as a person. I do not hate her personally, and because I understand why you are upset, I don't hate you either.

You apparently don't like the music of Buck Owens and Willie Nelson. Does that mean you hate them personally?

A few other notes: I've met Tom P and his lovely wife Marta a few times. They are both good people, and I'm proud to call them my friends. I'd probably be playing in a Band with Tom if I weren't doing my classical thing.

And, by sheer coincidence, my wife and I are actually in the final stages of nursing a sick dog she found (a pit bull of all things) back to health. She found him about 5 or 6 weeks ago. He was clearly abandoned. Sick and starving, with his feet all infected so it was painful for him to walk. We took him in. He's much better now and is turning into a great pet.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 10 Jul 2001 11:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Come on guys, don't hold back, let's have it!I
WANNA GET PHILOSOPHICAL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"The world is everything that is the case"

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Jul 2001 7:47 am

Jim Cohen...quite right...sorry I offended you. Perhaps next time, I'll select a Freud or Schopenhauer quote instead!

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 11 Jul 2001 7:50 am

Mike, that's what got me, people seemed to get all worked up like you were slagging off people's singing abilities, of Bob Moores bass playing, Garland Frady's guitar work, etc.
Whereas I thought you were making a valid point about these great talents being buried in a layer of schmaltz.
Don't even get me started on those 1960s repackaged Hank Williams recordings with strings added!

Dan Hatfield · Post by **Dan Hatfield** » 11 Jul 2001 8:31 am

Mr. Perlowin:

Did I say I hated the music of Buck Owens and Willie Nelson? I think not. Just because I don't think a particular singer is a 10 on the vocal scale doesn't mean I don't enjoy his band, his style, his songs, etc. I think Willie is a great writer, for instance, but I'm sorry, the man sings through his nose. Does that mean I "hate" his work? No, it does not. When I think of great voices, I think of Tony Bennett, Pavarotti (sp), etc, etc. But when Buck and Willie pass on, you won't catch me bad-mouthing their work just because I don't think they are outstanding singers.

Dan Hatfield

Gregg Galbraith · Post by **Gregg Galbraith** » 11 Jul 2001 8:52 am

Garland Frady ! What a player!

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 11 Jul 2001 10:54 am

Kant, according to "The Categorical Imperative," believed that one should always act as if one's action was the universal norm for human conduct. He did not believe in situational ethics, So as relates to this discussion, he would not be swayed by the situational arguments about the mitigating circumstances Chet was in. If it is wrong in one instance to compromise a musical expression, it would be wrong in all instances.

So, if it is agreed that the music WAS compromised, and that compromise is bad, Kant would side with M. Perlowin.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Jul 2001 11:08 am

I have to go lie down now.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 11 Jul 2001 12:23 pm

Jim
Be careful what you ask for, etc. Go chill for a minute or two.

Jason
Maybe I missed something, but I worked quite a bit with Garland Frady, and while he was a fantastic country singer and one sharp hillbilly, I don't recall his being a great guitarist. About as close as he came to that was his best friend was James Burton and he's neighbors with Johnny Meeks in GA. But that is close, I guess.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 11 July 2001 at 01:25 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 11 Jul 2001 12:52 pm

I'm a Frady I Kant take much more of this.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Jul 2001 12:58 pm

Mike, what are you a-Freud of?

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 11 Jul 2001 1:03 pm

CANIne add something? Good luck with the dog.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 11 Jul 2001 2:42 pm

Hi Jim,,,
Are you back from Italy?? Sometold me they saw you at the airport in Italy ,,,you were giving the guy in the restuarant a hard time
...said you wanted to order a "pastrami pizza" with "lox" you oughta know better than that.

Jim,,,you should have been here last week,,,one guy writes "I hope your dog dies"
How does he know the guy has a dog?

If the guy has no dog,,what does he do? go out and adopt a sick dog,so the dog can die & satisfy the guy who told him that?
You know what Im talkin about ??
Here's a question for you Jim,,,want to get off topic for a minute..OK??
Anyone can answer this,,,why do they put expiration dates on "sour cream and buttermilk??? when they are already sour when you buy them??

As for Mike P. he's a good guy,,,Im sure he meant no harm,,,cut the guy some slack will you all,,,Mike I hope your dog gets well,,,Jim I was supposed to go to calif but my daughter is still ill,,,so I have to cancel...
Be well Jackie Mason "understand what Im talkin about??? Jim your typing has a sort of Italian "accent" whats that all about.?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Jul 2001 2:52 pm

I know, Jody. I can't leave these guys alone. I go away for two lousy weeks and what do I come back to? "I hope your dog dies!"?? And some other dude quoting VOLTAIRE on the forum. Man! Talk about "Forum". I went to the ORIGINAL Forum in Italy. The ROMAN FORUM! Oh sure, it's a little run-down now, but hey, after 2,000 years it's bound to need a paint job. But I can guarantee ya, there wasn't nobody at the Roman Forum quoting VOLTAIRE! Ya want my personal opinion? I hope Perlowin's dog lives. I hope THIS THREAD dies, okay?