Chet and the "Countrypolitan" sound

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

First let me say that I admire Chet as a guitarist tremedously. But I do not admoire him as a producer. I hate the countrypolitan sound, with it's lame backgound vocals by the Anita Kerr singers, and it's use of strings instead of steels and fiddles. I think the style robbed country music of it's character, and turned it into a cross between real music and something you'd hear on an elevator. I think it is dull, lifeless, phoney, dishonest, and utterly devoid of any musical value.

I think as great a guitarist Chet was, as a producer he made some very bad records.

I am thankful that people like Merle, and Willie and Waylon and Buck rejected the style and made it unfashinable, and brought country music back to life. (At least for a while.)

nick allen · From: France

Not wishing to start an argument... but

I think Chet A was quoted many times as saying that "maybe he took things a little too far uptown" BUT his job was to sell records - or more specifically, to produce records which people would buy (and they did - Jim Reeves, Eddy Arnold, etc, etc, etc)

Also, his personal tastes in general seem to have leaned towards easy listening/soft jazz...

And while his productions may not appeal to you (Mike) - or me - or many others - that's a long way from saying they are "Bad"

(I can't STAND opera, but some people seem to find it "acceptable")

I think Chet A was a professional, in whatever he did - and when he produced, he did the job he felt he was being paid to do.

It's pretty clear when he felt personally committed to, and enthusiastic about, the music he was producing...

Nick

Al Udeen · From: Hendersonville Tn

Did any of those records sell?

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

History will show, that Chet did a fantastic job for his company, kept food on alot of peoples table, kept roofs over many a head, introduced the majority of us to Bob Moore, Buddy Harman, Floyd Cramer,Grady Martin, Hank Garland,ELVIS PRESLEY,THE EVERLY BROTHERS, WAYLON JENNINGS,WILLIE NELSON, DOLLY PARTON, PORTER WAGGONER,CHARLIE PRIDE, THE BROWNS, JIM ED BROWN, DON GIBSON AND COUNTLESS OTHERS. Chet loved traditional country music as much as anyone,he produced Jim Reeves as country, but his records didn't sell! So Chet adjusted to the situation, knowing the flames would come, but he sold millions of records, records that hold precious memories for most of us who lived in the time. Cosmo country or traditional country, I love them both...and it beats the hell out of LIMP BUISQUIT!! Thanks for the wonderful gift of music you have left for this world to enjoy for eternity CHESTER ATKINS CGP

[This message was edited by Larry Miller on 04 July 2001 at 07:00 AM.]

[This message was edited by Larry Miller on 04 July 2001 at 07:03 AM.]

nick allen · From: France

And just as a supplement to what I wrote above: all this relates very nicely to the interminable "why aren't they playing Merle Haggard licks on country records today?" posts. Most records weren't thirty years ago, either.
The business is *selling records*. If "they" thought that frailing b@njo and Bill Monroe-style vocals would sell, that's what you'd hear...
Equally, it relates to the "subjective/objective" discussions. I love Waylon's music. I'm sure LOTS of people (probably more, to be honest) much preferred Jim Reeves records, which put me to sleep pretty fast...

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

A few thoughts of a fool, thinking out loud...

Back in the early-mid 1960's, Jim Reeves bored me to tears. So did Eddy Arnold. I dug Bill Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, Ray Price, Ernest Tubb, Buck Owens, Bob Wills, and Hank Thompson. My bluegrass band played material by Price, Tubb, Owens and Thompson, as well as standard hillbilly fare.

Perlowin and I made music together in the early 60's, so I know what he's talking about.

nick allen · From: France

Essentially, I agree with you Herb, and with Mike P., (I wasn't knocking him at all) as regards personal tastes.
My point was just that Chet Atkins was doing his job, and I believe doing it well, in the context of his position.
As for Oh Brother - again, absolutely right... BUT - I suspect a large proportion of the sales are due to the popularity (well-justified, IMHO) of the movie... IF other similar styled records (Jerry Douglas, Norman Blake...) were to start selling heavily, then maybe we would get more of it (although the Dixie Chicks I believe incorporate a degree of bluegrass? and there is another "young folks" bluegrass-influenced band who are getting a lot of publicity - so much that I've forgotten the name

- brother & sister plus one other?).
As for the radio play - that's a whole OTHER ball of nasty gooey wax, as I understand it - globalization, anyone?

Nick

Janice Brooks · From: Pleasant Gap Pa

Ok folks the difference in the current slump in country muic is us!!!! I term we as folks who use our own labels, studio's, and contacts to make the music we please

Maby Chet did do what sold records to the masses, but the minority never had a voice such as internet communications.

It's interesting to note that a couple weeks ago Trisha Yearwood was NR 1 on the album charts with opening week sales of 47,000.
Lonestar just took over with 100,000 but I
don't see any other big HNC types releasing new albums very soon.

GO CONVINCE THOSE MISGUIDED FANS

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Geoff Brown · From: Nashvegas

Chet has noted on more than one occasion that he was never comfortable with what he was doing at RCA. He didn't like the "executive" label he was tagged with, and found producing other artists stressful. After his bout with colon cancer, he re-evaluated his life and left RCA to do what he did best...play guitar. Still, listening to many of his later records, I've often wished that I could edit out the string arrangements and synths. But that was the man's style. Apparently a good many folks feel likewise. At the memorial service, Garrison Keillor made a comment about Chet's frequent use of synths on his records and it drew quite a bit of laughter. Whether you like Chet's production style or not, it certainly makes for interesting disscussion. I think that to call it "butchering" is a bit over the top though.

TomP · From: Encino Ca

Butchering the music? C'mon Michael. Which particular songs were "butcherd" by Chet and that other equally evil RCA producer, Owen Bradley? The Patsy Cline stuff? Don Gibson's work with strings?
Personally, as all this is, I find the violin, viola, etc. to be perfectly valid musical instruments capable of extreme beauty and nuance. As far as being a sacrilige to, and "butcherer" of country music, well, there may be bigger offenders afoot these days. Bill Monroe, Earl Scruggs, Doug Dillard, John Hartford, Merle Haggard and many others certainly lived thru the carnage with their styles and respect intact. In other words, Mike, "When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way."

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-Tom www.tompowell.org

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I'd also like to add this thought, which can apply to Chet's situation with RCA, as well as several threads over on STEEL PLAYERS, and just about any indictment of any musical style, new or old.

If you, as a professional player, are having success, recognition, making bucks, or whatever your individual definition of "being successful" is, you will probably put up with a lot of discomfort, or ignore it, and focus on the good parts of what you're doing. And go home to a nice home, in a nice car, and consider your future comforts and security. In short, the American dream, and who's to say that particular musician isn't deserving of all that?

Chet was doing his job. I don't despise him for it, or anyone else for producing music I don't particularly care for. I just don't buy the music, but it's not Nuremburg!

And he was a very cool guitarist, and his approach to chord melody is something that many a steel guitar player could use.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

erik · Posted 4 Jul 2001 2:50 pm

I love the Countrypolitan sound. It made George Jones the legendary balladeer he is. You may disagree, but i'll disagree with that. There were many great artists and songs done in this style. I like the background groups - Jordonaires, Nashville Edition, Lea Jane singers, etc.

It's not what's happining up top that makes a song "Country", it's what's happening at the bottom - the beat and the bass. Many of those Countrypolitan songs had it. There are many songs today that do NOT have it, they have a rock beat.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

A very famous person once said...

Lonnie Portwood · From: Jacksonville, fl. USA

LIKE I SAID ALREADY, IMHO CHET ATKINS IS PROBABLY THE MOST INFLUENTIAL MUSICIAN OF THE 20TH CENTURY! CHET NOTED THAT DJANGO WAS A MAJOR INFLUENCE IN HIS MUSIC, AND IF YOU LISTEN CLOSE YOU CAN HEAR IT AS WELL AS MANY OTHER MASTERS WHO WERE PLAYING UNBELIEVABLE JAZZ AND BLUES WITH PRIMITIVE INSTRUMENTS BACK IN YHE 20,S AND 30,S. IT IS OBVIOUS THAT OTHER MUSICIANS COULD PLAY FASTER, MORE HIP, ETC. THE "MAN" JUST PERFECTED A STYLE, TOUCH, AND DELIVERY THAT ADDED CLASS TO EVERYTHING HE DID. WHEN I SAY CHET WAS THE MOST INFLUENTIAL, I'M CONSIDERING HIS OVERALL TALENTS; DIRECTING, PRODUCING, AND BUSINESS ACUMEN. HE KNEW WHAT PEOPLE WANTED. LOOK AT THE LONG LIST OF TALENT THAT HE INTRODUCED TO THE WORLD AND EVERYONE A UNIQUE STYLIST, MUSICIAN, SINGER, ETC. THE MAN WILL NEVER BE DUPLICATED. THANKS, CHET! LONNIE PORTWOOD, JACKSONVILLE, FL.

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Legends are legends not because their work cannot be duplicated, or even done better, but because they DID IT FIRST! www.genejones.com

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

Chet may have been doing his job, but so was Ken Nelson. Now there's a guy who did Nashville sound material (heaps of 1960s Ferlin Husky recordings) as well as Western Swing, Bakersfield twang, truck driving songs, etc, etc. The only thing Capitol didn't really get was Bluegrass, for some reason they just couldn't seem to get it and most of their bluegrass albums (the few that there where), remained obscenely obscure.

I'm not knocking Chet, but I really have a problem with a lot of the Nashville product and especially RCA's middle of the road approach through the 1960s and 1970s.
Having said that, I love a lot of the Chet-Elvis 1950s sides that came together, it took rockabilly into another theatre and sound, real rock and roll to rival Memphis, but with some polish.

I have to agree with Mike on the whole Duane Eddy's "Twang a Country Tune" album, the
totally whitebread Anita Kerr Singers suck the life out of it!
Other labels like Decca really wallowed in MOR style warbling and vocal drivel, it's all a matter of taste, but all of Wynn Stewart's Nashville sides would be so much better without the oohs and aahs.

Every time I see an elvis live video from the 1969-1977 period, I always think how much better it would have been if they hadn't swamped the actual band with the orchestra and if those singers were simply not there.
I guess when I hear female backing I want it to sound like the Ikettes and not Anita Kerr & Co.!
Must be the stomping soulman side of my musical taste.

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The future ain't what it used to be

Larry Lenhart · From: Ponca City, Oklahoma

What is your point-what does it matter now 40 years later-I hate to see this Chet bashing on the forum again-same subject that was brought up several months ago. And dont try to soften it by saying that it isnt Chet bashing. The man is barely in the ground and again, the bashing starts about things that happened 30 years ago. I personally dont care what ANYONE happens to think about the records of the 60s and 70s or whenever it was and I wouldnt normally post anything, but the name of Chet was brought up and I couldnt just sit idly by w/o putting in my 2 cents worth!! I just dont think this is the proper place to talk about Chet,in ANY negative way. There are several fingerstyle guitar forums where the praise of Chet is posted by many who are knowledgeable about him. He is my first and foremost guitar hero. I dont know about his producing and dont really care either. I dont like to post negative things, but I dont like to see anything negative said about Chet either, and I will defend him till the day I die. May he rest in peace and God bless his family.

Eddie Lange · From: Nashville, TN

Now, I know a lot of you guys really like Billy Sherrill(I love the guys stuff), but you might as well start flamin him. Granted Pete's steel was right up front, but the countrypolitan was there. Now, I regard Chet and Billy as production geniuses. If you guys look close, Chet was producing Jim Reeves, Eddy Arnold, early Waylon( which was actually really cool stuff like Mental Revenge, The Chokin Kind, Singer of Sad Songs, etc.) and Jack Clement and Bob Ferguson were producing the really country stuff on RCA like Connie Smith, Porter, and Charley. Its just that the pop sound was really popular. But the work was delegated and Chet's label was kickin out pop and country.

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The Young Steelkid

[This message was edited by Eddie Lange on 05 July 2001 at 06:41 PM.]

[This message was edited by Eddie Lange on 05 July 2001 at 06:43 PM.]

Jason Odd · From: Stawell, Victoria, Australia

Guys, if you are referring to me, then you are sadly mistaken if you think that I'm Chet bashing.
I'm Nashville Sound/Countrypolitan bashing.
That's a big difference.

Waylon, don't get me started there, his first Nashville records were terrible, folk-country Waylon, give me a break. It was two years of bad records before 'Mental Revenge' which is a killer record.

You kind of missed my point, didin't I say that the darling of the West Coast Ken Nelson actually did 'those' sort of productions?
And on that topic; before Earl Ball hit town the Capitol Nashville material was seriously syrypy.

Billy Sherrill, Jack Clement and Bob Ferguson where awesome, great guys who didn't spend a lot of their formative years in Nashville, Billy and Jack where creating great Memphis sides for years.
I look at those three as helping to reinvent and create a real solid Nashville sound, between 1968 and 1972 they could do no wrong, fantastic, stuff, Tammy Wynette, Dolly and Porter, etc.

I'm not knocking Chet as such, but for me, the 1958 to 1966 period in Nashville was a real low point, sure there where some great records that used a pop crossover, Johnny Cash 'Ring Of Fire,' Patsy Cline, and plenty of others sure.

Larry, if you're a fan of Chet's guitar playing (which I am too), but don't know about his production side, then perhaps you should stop and read this properly, we aren't mocking, attacking or down playing Chet's guitar playing abilities or persona.
We're talking about a certain trend where the wonderful edge of country music was muffled with stilted production and overly listener friendly fluff.

Eddie I understand your point, but most of the records you mention are post 1967, (not Gentleman Jim Reeves obviously), which is kind of when they pulled out of the true 'Nashville Sound' era into the Countrypolitan era.

I love Billy Sherrill, I dig his R&B, soul, rock, country and rockabilly productions, but his post-Behind Closed Doors work tends to leave me wondering where the magic went.

the thing is with Chet, is that he was a main figure in the creation of the Nashville Sound, so his name is bound to come up.

Geoff Brown · From: Nashvegas

Larry, I have not seen any reference in this thread to Chet's guitar-playing ability. The discussion here relates to his production style...period. You acknowledge that you know nothing of Chet's work as a producer.To know him only as a guitarist is to be missing out on an important part of the life of someone who you obviously feel very passionate about. I don't understand why that wouldn't interest you to some degree, but that is certainly your choice. Far be it from me to speak for Chet Atkins, but from what I know of him, I wouldn't be surprised if he was in agreement with some of the views posted here.
Larry, if someone here started in on Chet's guitar playing, I'd be on the bandwagon right along with you. But that isn't the case, and I wouldn't expect it to be.

[This message was edited by Geoff Brown on 06 July 2001 at 04:07 AM.]

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

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[This message was edited by Larry Miller on 06 July 2001 at 03:57 AM.]

Larry Lenhart · From: Ponca City, Oklahoma

This is what I object to: Posted by Mike P.

"But I do not admoire him as a producer. I hate the countrypolitan sound, with it's lame backgound vocals by the Anita Kerr singers, and it's use of strings instead of steels and fiddles. I think the style robbed country music of it's character, and turned it into a cross between real music and something you'd hear on an elevator. I think it is dull, lifeless, phoney, dishonest, and utterly devoid of any musical value.
I think as great a guitarist Chet was, as a producer he made some very bad records."

I can read, I realize that no one is putting down Chets playing, but my point is: "What is the point of putting down ANY aspect of his life and career". This is a rediculous thread and I dont even know why I am responding to it, but it just irritates and hurts me to see ANY BODY say ANY THING negative about Chet.
Again I say, WHAT IS YOUR POINT AND WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR POST. It seems to me that you saw too many nice things being said about CHET and you, Mike, just had to bring up negavite. I am attending the Chet convention in Nashville next week and it will be my 7th year in a row. I can promise you that negative comments about his production will not be made there !!

Billy Johnson · From: Nashville, Tn, USA

From what I get from people in the biz back then & Eddie Stubbs,Elvis and rockabilly had all but sucked the life out of Nashville. So someone had to do something to keep working. And Chet kept alot of artist & musicians from starvin to death. I don't know I was'nt born til 60. But thats story I have heard from some.
Next thing ya know people will be knockin Jimmy Rodgers,Pop Stoneman, etc...
Every era has a sound, find one you like and enjoy.

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

Would I have played on a Chet Atkins session in the 60's? Your damn right! I imaging I would have listened to the acetate over and over and over again, patted myself on the back, called my Mama and played it for her, and then I would have spent my $70.00? session fee, and would have a lifetime of bragging rights. Would you have played a Chet Atkins session if you were called, or would you say hell no I'm not going to compromise my musical integrity? Or would you say Chet I'll do it!!, providing you don't put strings on it, and Chet could you please try this..............

and Larry Lenhart, Mike P. is just stating his opinion which is what this forum is for. He's probably sitting at his computer looking at all the posts his thread has received. God Bless CHESTER BURTON ATKINS.CGP

[This message was edited by Larry Miller on 06 July 2001 at 07:53 PM.]

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