How would you notate this?

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

This is a question about the "proper" way to notate the chords for a particular song.

The song is "26 cents" by The Wilkinsons. It's originally in the key of B, but I play it (on the piano) and sing it in C, so that's what I'm gonna do here.

I'll first notate it the way I would, then ask a couple of questions, and wait for your comments. Comments don't have to be only in answer to my questions, though. I'll just notate the chorus:

C/D
G
Am
C/D
G
Am
Em
F
D
Dm
F
F/G
C

The specific questions would be

1) What's the "correct" nomenclature in this context for the C/D and F/G chords (where C/D means the C chord over a D played in the bass register) ?

2) When the song goes to the D-chord, is that just a modulation into the key of G?

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The C/D may be correct (I don't know the song), but it might also be a Dm11. Try playing an F or an A somewhere in it and see if it sounds right or not. If the A fits but not the F, it's probably a D9sus.

The F/G might be correct also, but if a D sounds okay in there you're probably looking at a G9sus or a G11. The difference is that the G11 includes the B, where the sus substitutes the C for the B. Sus chords are pretty common in modern pop music.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
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John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Sus4
Bobby is right, imho
It's a matter of semantics, but I'd say the D- functions as a normal Minor II chord.
As Bobby mentioned about the Sus chords, there's alot of that in modern country too, the minor II - IV move.
-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 26 June 2001 at 10:36 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Modern country is pop music, John!

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

"Country--the other pop music"

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

"Country, the best pop music."

I'll have to see if the sus chords, etc. "sound right" tonight.

Bobby, when you say that "C/D might be correct", does that mean that if the sus chords, etc. "sound wrong" that it's then the right chord?

I still think that the song is modulating in and out of G when I get to the D chord.

Hmmm, I've got the music for the album somewhere -- I'll have to check to see how they notated it (for what that's worth).

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

OK, on the C / D the A sounds OK, but not the F.

So, that's a Dsus9?

D = root
F# = 3rd which is sus(pended)
G = fourth (but played an octave higher)
A = fifth
C = 7th
E = 9th

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Bill Crook · From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

David,
A short time ago we had a long discussion about Sus chords here. I wish I could remember the name of the thread.
Anyway, this relates to your F# note....
I was never too sure what the actual definition of a Sus chord was... to me, the inclusion of the 4th was more important than the exclusion of the 3rd. One forumite (Chas Cmith, perhaps?) reminded me that the exclusion of the 3rd was indeed the defining quality of a Sus chord.
I don't think I'd annotate it as Sus 9 though, that would be confusing. (mainly because Sus chords are often notated Sus4, to imply the inclusion of the 4th tone)
Players that use extended chords know that adding the 9th tone is acceptable.
As far as the D chord/key of G thing... I think you will find many examples of a major II chord resolving to a minor II before preceding if you look around.
-John

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

From what I read (did a search last night), the sus chords are usually denoted as either sus4 or sus2 (depending on which note is played instead of the 3rd).

The reason I called it a sus9 (and I assume why Bobby called it that) is because of the included 7th in the chord (the C note).

Now, since the 4 note was also included in this chord, maybe I should've called it the sus4,9 ?

At any rate, the notes in the "full chord" were (relative to the D-chord, not the key of C -- this gets confusing):

root, fourth, fifth, seventh, and ninth
(D, G, A, C, E)

In reality, I was playing:

D, C, E, G (inversion of the G, and skipping the A).

Including the A sounded OK, but seemed a little "busy" or "full" to me. I can't swear whether it's in the original recording or not, though.

I'm not sure how one would notate this to be perfectly clear:

Dsus4,9(no fifth) ? (Not sure how you'd even notate "no fifth")

Or like I did originally: D / C

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

quote:
OK, on the C / D the A sounds OK, but not the F.
So, that's a Dsus9?

I don't know what a Dsus9 chord is. I suspect that it's one of Carl Dixon's music teacher's inventions.

Maybe the chord you're describing is a D9sus4. Often the "4" is understood and people just say "sus" which means that the 4 takes the place of the 3 in the chord. So a D9sus is spelled D,G,A,C,E. This gives the bass player the freedom to play a D-A-D-A as bass players like to do.

C/D is the correct notation if there's no A in the chord. If both F# and A work in the chord, it's a D11, spelled D,F#,A,C,E,G.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

quote:

But (correct me if I'm wrong), the notes of the major II chord aren't all in the root key, correct?

Correct. But, it is very common for tunes outside the traditional vien to step out of "tonal centres".
Major II chords, Major VI chords, Major III chords, etc. are all the same. They contain notes unrelated to the tonic.
Listen to a traditional player attempt a tune like "The Preacher". All is well until they hit the major III chord, then there is often a train wreck. They are sometimes unaccustomed to stepping out of the tonic scale modes.
David, check out an old tune like "On the sunny side of the street", and you'll see alot of this. It has III chords, and it also has the Major II - Minor II progression.
One of the main features of swing and jazz music is the importance of the II-V-I
progression. This theory was taken to a different level with tunes like "How high the moon", where the tonal centre changes so constantly that sometimes it's confusing trying to tell what key you're in. (Jerry Gleason's tab of Coltrane's "moment's notice" is another example.. see "tab" section). I think these are better examples of a "change of key".
-John
p.s. I've never been to school... if you don't count the Ottawa/Montreal Institute of Vanquished Jazz Piano Pickers.

Perhaps someone with more legit qualifications could clarify this more.

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C/D is the correct notation if there's no A in the chord. If both F# and A work in the chord, it's a D11, spelled D,F#,A,C,E,G.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's just too damn many notes in that chord! And 'sus' means that the third is 'suspended' (raised a half step), then (usually) resolved. And I'm still lost on the C/D thing. Does that mean a C chord with a D in the bass (ouch!!!)?

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

quote:
Well, the A "works" (though I'm not sure it's in the original anywhere) -- the F# definitely does NOT work.

So, if somebody wanted the A not to be played (because it would sound too "busy", not because it didn't "work"), would it be more correct to say D9sus4, or C / D ?

Or is there something you can add to D9sus4 that indicates the fifth isn't supposed to be played?

If you don't want the A to be played in the rhythm section, the C/D is the correct chord. It's pronounced "C over D".

I never heard that sus with no number means omit the third. I've always used sus and sus4 interchangably. The Art of Music Engraving and Processing by Ted Ross describes it this way:

quote:
Suspended .... sus, (sus4) .... Csus

(In naming chords, the suspension is usually the 4th of the scale of the chord in question. So using the number 4 following the abreviation is unnecessary. The suspension can occur in other chords, such as C7sus.)

The book was published in 1970. It also says this:

quote:
A trend, becoming quite popular, is to give the name of the bass note along with the chord name. Giving the bass note does not affect the rhythm guitar to any extent but is directed to the bass or bass guitar. A typical way to address these chords would be as follows:
Bb6
--- or Bb6(G bass)
G

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
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[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 28 June 2001 at 11:03 PM.]