volume pedals discussion

Algernon · Post by **Algernon** » 2 Jan 2001 11:24 am

I play guitar, not steel guitar. I play an AmStd Strat with Bill Lawrence pups (280S).

I'm looking for a volume pedal that won't degrade my signal. I've heard that the Morley pedals are pretty good and so is the Ernie Ball pedal.

Any opinions/comments from anyone else?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 3 Jan 2001 6:10 am

This should probably be in "Pedal Steel" but any volume pedal that steel players use should be fine for regular guitar as long as it is free standing and not designed to be mounted to the pedal bar. In general any pedal that just uses a pot shouldn't affect the signal (much). Pedal steel volume pedals are generally more durable, since we use them constantly. If you'll be standing to use it, check out how it feels since most steel players use theirs while sitting. I don't know about Morley pedals affecting the signal, but Ernie Ball is good. The applicable steel pedals to look at would be: Goodrich, Sho-Bud, Hilton, Dekley, etc.

Algernon · Post by **Algernon** » 3 Jan 2001 7:01 am

Thanks for that reply. I had never even heard of most of those you mentioned. I would be standing to use it so yes, that would be a good way to test drive one.

Music store staff all try to sell the Ernie Ball pedal as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am skeptical whenever that happens.

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 3 Jan 2001 8:34 am

The Ernie Ball pedal works great with regular guitar and does not degrade the signal. I used mine in a rock band playing std guitar and it works great, and is built to last.

-Bill

Bill Rowlett · Post by **Bill Rowlett** » 3 Jan 2001 12:18 pm

The Ernie Ball pedals are one of the best built pedals that I've seen. I like the older design with the jacks on the side, but most regular guitar players want them on the front. Most steel players that use Ernie Ball pedals change the pots from a 250Kohm to a 500 Kohm (audio taper). This helps keep the pot from loading down the pickup and degrading the tone. You could also use a line driver or FET preamp in front of the volume pedal to keep the highs in the signal. If you don't mind using an AC powered pedal and the associated higher cost, then the Hilton infra-red pedal gets raves from steel players, who are without a doubt, the pickiest ears in the business. Keith Hilton, who builds them, is a regular member of this forum and would be easy to contact.

Hope this helps you,

Bill [This message was edited by Bill Rowlett on 10 January 2001 at 01:00 PM.]

Algernon · Post by **Algernon** » 3 Jan 2001 12:26 pm

I am also a regular poster on the Fender Forum (also known as the FDP - Fender Discussion Page). I use the same handle there as here - Algernon.

Does it make any difference that I'm using Bill Lawrence pups? I believe he also makes steel guitar pups. Do any of you steel players like them/use them?

I use 500K audio taper volume pots in my Strat (same reason).

How would I go about contacting this Keith Hilton fellow?

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 4 Jan 2001 6:58 am

I've used a Morley Slimline photovoltaic since 1982 and it's perfect in its application. I have opened it up occasionally and readjusted the absorption card to minimize photon diffusion. The thing is not entirely sealed against ambient light, however. In direct sunshine, a noticable amount of voltage gets generated.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 4 Jan 2001 10:15 am

Check out the Ernie Ball pedal in Buy and Sell.

Bob Kagy · Post by **Bob Kagy** » 4 Jan 2001 3:37 pm

Algernon, here's Keith Hilton's website address; it'll give you his e-mail address:
http://www.duanesmusic.com/hilton.html

Keith is good to deal with and stands behind his products.

Many, many of the best steel players use Lawrence pickups.

Hope this helps, Bob

HOWaiian · Post by **HOWaiian** » 7 Jan 2001 9:54 pm

algernon-

I played slide gtr in a rock band for 10 yrs; you'd've needed a crowbar nailed to a lit stick of dynamite to've gotten my foot off of my Ernie Ball volume pedal! I recommend them to everyone unreservedly: they're built like tanks &, for my money, have a perfect taper.

the stereo model is good too, but I don't like the taper nearly as much as the mono.

hope this helps.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » 7 Jan 2001 10:54 pm

I used a Morley Volume Pedal for for my steel for a short time. I found that I lost a considerable amount of volume. I now use a Sho-Bud volume pedal. It has a 500K Pot'. The Morley didn't. I say try the Goodrich Low Profile Volume Pedal.

------------------

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 8 Jan 2001 7:01 pm

Hi Algernon!

Do any steel players like or use Lawrence pickups?

Is the Pope Catholic?

Does a bear sleep in the woods?

Could Bob Wills play the fiddle?

I'd like to get a set of electric guitar pickups that would come anywhere close to comparing with the 710 Lawrence on my Emmons! Looks like maybe I'll have to get some Lawrence guitar pickups, huh?

Volume pedal for electric guitar that won't downgrade your signal: Here is my highly opinionated response. For over 25 years I have used a Sho-Bud volume pedal with a 500K type J pot in it for electric guitar. The treadle angle is perfect for playing standing up and the Sho-Bud is a STRONG pedal. The old Bigsby and chrome Fender volume pedals from the 1950's and 60's are also built very strong, as are the Goodrich pedals and one or two obscure brands like the Klontz Custom. I mean STRONG ENOUGH to stand on continuously for 4 to 5 hours a night, put most of your weight on for 25 years and slam around like a football and still never fail. Don't try that rough treatment with a Morley or DeArmond or Vox or Dekley Low-Boy or Ernie Ball pedal. I have seen every one of these other brands fail, either with a busted treadle, busted trunions/hinge mechanisms, busted "rack and gear", or busted jacks. Before I forget to mention it, the Goodrich volume pedals are very well-known, very good and very durable, but some of them have what is IMHO too long a throw for standup playing. So if you want a Goodrich try out two or three different model numbers first and pick the one that works best for you. Another consideration when buying a volume pedal is to go with a simple trouble-free mechanism but stay away from "rack and gear" systems. They have been around forever and are just as troublesome today as they were in the 1940's.

Since we are dealing with a high-impedance signal here, use cables with the lowest capacitance rating you can find and keep the lengths as short as reasonably possible. George L cables (formerly Lawrence or very similar) are a very highly recommended brand, used by many techs on the road. With the combination of a well-built and well-shielded pedal, a 500K Ohm Type J potentiometer, and low-capacitance cables you won't have to worry about degrading your signal. The amp will "see" it just fine and it'll sound great.

Seriously.

Tim R.

[This message was edited by Tim Rowley on 08 January 2001 at 07:11 PM.]

Ann Fabian · Post by **Ann Fabian** » 10 Jan 2001 12:20 pm

We have sold a number of the Low-Boy (low profile) Goodrich volume pedals to guitar players.

The angle of the Goodrich low-boy pedals makes it easy for a player standing up, according to Bud Carter and also from feedback these customers have given us.

Most of them buy the Goodrich L-120.

We sell it and other Goodrich low-boy pedals here or purchase online here.

Ann Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars
617 West Kearney Street
Suite 101
Mesquite, Texas 75149 USA
1-800-969-7332 orders (accessories and steels)
1-972-475-2324 international orders
1-972-288-9100 technical info
1-972-288-9169 FAX
www.steelguitar.com
The Steel Guitar Information Resource
www.steelguitarINFO.com
OnLine Steel Guitarists Directory
www.OnLineSteelers.com



[This message was edited by Ann Fabian on 10 January 2001 at 12:21 PM.]

Bill Rowlett · Post by **Bill Rowlett** » 10 Jan 2001 1:15 pm

It's just my opinion, but I have Sho-Bud, Morley, Goodrich and Ernie Ball pedals. I would take the Ernie Ball over the others any day for ruggedness. The Sho-Bud has a strong housing, but the string design leaves something to be desired. The Goodrich pedals have a cheezy pot bracket and string arrangement. They are a pain to work on too. My Morley is a sheet metal housing gear pedal and feels grainy when I use it. The Ernie Ball is easy to work on and maintain. All said and done, I carry the Goodrich for its light weight and small profile.

Bill

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 10 Jan 2001 5:58 pm

Bill, it's obvious that no certain brand of volume pedal is absolutely perfect for the typical stand-up electric guitar player, but here's some info on the subject of the inadequate string and spool setup used in Sho-Bud volume pedals. I've addressed this here on the forum before, but anyway for those who have difficulty with the Sho-Bud string and spool, it's simple and cheap to convert the pedal over to the superior setup used in the Emmons, Derby, and Klontz pedals. I've personally converted several Sho-Bud pedals in this manner. Here's how: send away to Emmons Guitar Co. and purchase one of their pot pulleys and a return spring for a push-pull steel guitar. Go to your local store (grocery, discount, whatever) and purchase a round waxed men's dress shoelace. Smooth out the string guide on top of the string post with a rat-tail file so that it won't snag anything. Hook the square end of the Emmons spring in the treadle spring hole. Anchor one end of the waxed shoelace to the string anchor screw (a small washer may be helpful). Install the Emmons pulley on the pot shaft. Take 2 wraps of string (in the right direction) around the pulley, pull the string up over the post and string guide, and tie it to the round end of the Emmons spring with a small amount of tension on the spring. Compress the treadle, set the pot to full open, and "voila", a trouble-free Sho-Bud volume pedal. Incidently, set up this way the string will not slip and will outlast 2 or 3 Type J pots. It makes the Sho-Bud pedal utterly dependable. Total cost of modification is about $6.00 and worth it.

Tim R. [This message was edited by Tim Rowley on 10 January 2001 at 06:03 PM.]

Bill Rowlett · Post by **Bill Rowlett** » 15 Jan 2001 9:12 am

Tim,

That is a good mod for Sho-Bud pedals. A little spring tension goes a long way in keeping the string on the pulley.

Bill

Algernon · Post by **Algernon** » 16 Jan 2001 8:47 am

That's all pretty interesting information.

I understand that some of these pedals, for example, the Ernie Ball pedal, come stock with a 250K pot. Now what you are all saying is that it would work even better with a 500K pot. right?

I think I could handle the pot replacement myself, but would I just replace it with a regular 500K audio pot? Does the shaft have to be any certain length? The volume pot in my Strat is a 500K audio taper pot and so is the tone pot. The other tone pot has been wired as a blender pot (also 500K) but out of the circuit as far as volume is concerned.

Is there anyplace to get 500K audio taper pots with long shafts?

One more thing, what does a "J" type pot mean?

Bill Rowlett · Post by **Bill Rowlett** » 16 Jan 2001 9:59 am

Several of the pedal steel vendors sell 500K pots for volume pedals on line or over the phone. These pots are usually a special order from the manufacturer and go at a pretty steep price ($25-30) from the vendors that are willing to buy a production run lot order. The rugged mil spec sealed audio taper design is hard to come by anywhere else. On the other hand, I have had to replace only one in 20+ years of playing. Other folks are not so lucky, but the pots are usually pretty tough and long lasting. If you decide to replace the pot, just ask here and we will point you to some of our sources.

Bill

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 16 Jan 2001 10:27 am

I have both Ernie Ball and Goodrich pedals. I use the Goodrich when I play live and the Ernie Ball in the studio. For my tastes, the Goodrich sounds too bright in the studio. I prefer a mellower sound which I get form the Ernie Ball pedal. Likewise, The Ernie ball is not bright enough for playing live.

I don't whether the Ernie Ball pedal decreases the treble or the Goodrich, with it's active circuitry artificially brightens it. And undoubtedly my amp, a 1976 Music Man HD 212, is factor in on this. But the two pedals definately sound different. I suggest that you try them both and see which one is best suited to your needs.

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 16 Jan 2001 6:53 pm

Algernon, the Type J potentiometer we have today is a direct copy of the old Allen Bradley Type J military spec sealed audio taper pots that we used to be able to buy for about $4.95 thirty years ago. They are built tough, like a Mack truck. They are commonly available in 250K, 500K, and 1000K (1 Meg) values, and in long or short shaft models. Most of the currently available Type J pots are branded "Clarostat" and are made in Mexico but the specs are the same. You can get them from any good steel guitar accessory supplier, such as George L, Emmons, Tom Bradshaw, Bobbe Seymour, or about any steel guitar dealer. I would recommend using a 500K pot for your purposes. Yes, you can easily change the pot in your pedal. When you unsolder the wires for the first time, be sure to mark where each wire goes so that you can resolder them correctly.

Tim R.

HOWaiian · Post by **HOWaiian** » 16 Jan 2001 9:00 pm

if you go for the Ernie Ball, you might be able to get it stock w/a 500k pot, but I'm not sure; call or email EB to find out.

Algernon · Post by **Algernon** » 17 Jan 2001 1:34 pm

I just found a type J audio taper pot with a 2" shaft, but it is 1 meg, not 500K.

I have two choices. I can either use it as it is, as a 1 meg pot (will this work? Be better? be worse? make any difference at all?)

or

I can solder a 1 meg fixed resistor in parallel with it (between the two outside posts) to make it act like a 500K pot.

Any comments? Would just using it as a 1 meg pot be OK? (It would be a little less work) but might degrade the signal. Any experience with this?

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 18 Jan 2001 8:03 pm

I don't think you will like the results of placeing a 500k resistor across the 1 meg pot. The results will be a very "fast" pedal action. In other words, about 1/2 pedal travel is full off to 1/2 full on. The 2nd half of the pedal will have no more effect on the sound level.

Spend the few bucks and get a 500K pot.[This message was edited by Bill Crook on 19 January 2001 at 08:29 PM.]

Algernon · Post by **Algernon** » 19 Jan 2001 8:00 am

I was wondering if putting a fixed resistor across it might have that effect on the taper.

What if I just left it as a 1 meg pot? The taper would be unaffected, and all it would really do is increase the potential from ground another 500K.

Torres recommends using 1 meg volume pots for pick ups from 8-12K total DC resistance and a 2 meg volume pot for pick ups above 12K total DC resistance, to maximize output.

If that's a bad idea, I will just do as you suggested and spend the bucks for a 500K pot. In my mind though, the difference between a 250K pot and a 500K pot is not really that much (I do have a background in electronics).

Many (most) home stereo systems only use 100K volume pots, or even lower. It's only us gear-head type musicians that these little details seem to make a big difference to.