A "dobro swatstika guitar?"

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 10 May 2003 5:48 am

This guitar has been the source of considerable discussion on another forum that I participate in.

Has anyone ever seen anything like it, or know more?
Symbolism aside, I'm wondering what a resonator without soundholes sounds like.

Despite the seller's clam that the swatstika is a good luck sign -- and I'm well aware of its origins as a religious symbol -- I think it's much more likely that this guitar was built after the swatstika became recognized for its association with the Nazis.

I sincerely hope that any discussion that ensues focuses on the guitar, not ideology. If it's the latter, I hope Brad will quickly put a padlock on it.[This message was edited by Russ Young on 10 May 2003 at 07:15 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 10 May 2003 7:23 am

Only thing that comes to mind is the 'Blitzenpecker' resonator hoax that is mentioned in Stacy Phillip's 'Complete Dobro' book. Was claimed to be Hitler's dobro....

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » 10 May 2003 9:28 am

First of all, it's a National, not a Dobro. By the looks of the body edges it seems to be a 3 piece body (production 12 fretters had the top and sides stamped from one piece and the back soldered on) which would indicate very early production, (1930) but the coverplate is ribbed which came a bit later (1933) If someone were to have ordered such a thing from the factory it may very well have had to have been made as a three piece. There don't appear to have ever been 'f' holes punched in the top. This guitar was likely made just before, or at about the same time as Hitler and his use of the Swastika was just getting going, but before the war in Europe started.
As to the Swastikas I don't think they look exactly like the ones the Nazi's used do they? (I'm not that familiar) Either the direction isn't the same or the extra 'leg' is different. Swastikas have been around for many hundreds of years and along with a Christian symbol was also used by early inhabitants of the Southwest like the Anasazi.
A fascinating piece of National-lore but who they Hell would want to ever take it out in public?

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 10 May 2003 10:00 am

Mike:

I pulled out the Brozman book on Nationals and would suspect you're right about the vintage, putting it back before Hitler gained momentum,

Even though the swatstikas do not appear to be the Nazi-style, there would be real irony in this being custom-ordered from National -- the Dopyeras were Slovakian.

As a guy who has made some pretty interesting guitars, do you think the lack of soundholes in the upper bout would make much difference?

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 10 May 2003 10:19 am

The swastika symbol goes back to Sanskrit where I believe it was the symbol of life. Evidently the legs were reversed for the Nazi symbol, regardless, that shape has been around for a long time.

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » 10 May 2003 1:55 pm

As a guy who has made some pretty interesting guitars, do you think the lack of soundholes in the upper bout would make much difference?

Russ, I'm pretty sure those Swastikas are soundholes. There's one shot from the butt end that seems to indicate they are cutout of the metal.

As to no soundholes at all, that's where most of the low end comes from in resonator guitars. (I have a wood body baritone single cone and you can hold your hand an inch away from the 'f' holes and feel the air pulsate when you hit the bass strings.) I'd imagine that without them it would make the guitar sound brighter, maybe even muffled and quieter. Maybe I'll tape 'em off on my steel body and try it.

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 11 May 2003 1:19 am

The Indian good luck sign, Suvastika, is normally done so it appears to be turning clockwise,or sunwise, so it come into the same group as the other sun-wheel symbols, like the Irish Triskelion or the Legs of Man (Isle of Man, that is). Rudyard Kiplings books- "The Jungle Book" etc, all had the Suvastika on the cover originally.
The Nazi Swastika is anti-clockwise, Widdershins in witchcraft, symbolising darkness and destruction.
Cheers
Dave

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 11 May 2003 4:34 am

Dave,

The Nazi Swastika is anti-clockwise

No, it´s not. It runs clockwise and is rotated 45 degrees (diagonally).

Look at this site: http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/34/3415.html

BTW: The use of the swastika and other symbols of the Nazi party and Nazi organizations is illegal in Germany, and rightly so! As much as I like dobros, this thing would never cross my doorstep! I find the use of the swastika as "decoration" on anything extremely poor taste, to put it mildly.

Rainer

------------------
Remington D 10 8+7, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S 14 gearless 8+5, Peavey Session 400 LTD

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 11 May 2003 4:42 am

So this guitar was factory made as a special order I assume?

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » 11 May 2003 7:33 pm

From the symbols site:

In 1920 the swastika was officially accepted as the main symbol on the party banner.

Wow, I had no idea that it was used so early. That site also showed a variation of the swastika that closely matches the ones on the National in question and says that it is an early Greek symbol.

I guess someone could buy it, cut them out and put in really big screens.

Steve Honum · Post by **Steve Honum** » 12 May 2003 7:32 am

There is a similar and also confusing use of the swastika as a logo on vintage surfboards made about the same period by Pacific Systems. These were solid wood, plank syle boards with a small swastika placed on the top near the tail. They are referred to by collectors as "swastika models". Some say it was the american indian connection. I have also read there was a dutch guy at the factory who was a nazi sympathizer. I think this was in the late '30s in the Los Angeles area. Was National based in L.A. then? I think they were. If these are non-original sound holes, what happened to the f-holes normally on these guitars?
Haere mai,
Steve H.
S8A6

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 12 May 2003 7:42 am

As I recall, National and Dobro merged in 1934. The combined company moved to Chicago at that point.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 12 May 2003 8:54 am

One association not mentioned thus far is the highly decorated Oklahoma NG 45th Infantry Division of WWII and Korea combat whose shoulder patch was the "THUNDERBIRD", from American-Indian heritage.

Gene
www.genejones.com

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 20 May 2003 6:29 pm

a "twisted cross" has been a sign of good luck for centuries...just because for a couple of decades the Nazi's appropriated it's use doesn't mean a thing to me personally(my father fought in the european theater in WW2 and brought home a bunch of stuff...HE never had a problem w/it)...I have seen hundreds of buildings built in the 20's with swastikas in the masonry..for good luck...a symbol only is what you think it is..not the thing itself...gosh, doesn't the US FLAG have 50 pentagrams?...I don't think of it that way...if Hitler was a lap steel player, should it be banned?...any German folk tunes?....It's just a Dopyera built guitar w/ good luck symbol sound holes...I'm sure that's what they thought while building it...nothing more sinister than that...
Mike

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 21 May 2003 7:17 am

Gives me the creeps. I remember when I sent my brother a long sleeve "Dago Choppers" t-shirt with big SS bolts on it. The shop was in Ocean Beach Calf and said so on the shirt, but in much smaller letters. Well my brother was running one morning up in Gig Harbor Wa where he lives and a car load of teenagers drove by and stopped further up the road screaming he was a Hitler lover #%@*. I wouldn't want to exsplain what those symbols on my guitar really meant all the time, sounds like a hassel. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 08:20 AM.]

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 21 May 2003 7:01 pm

So I guess this National is every bit as ordinary as all the 12-fret metal-bodied guitars the Dopyeras built with soundholes shaped like four-leaf clovers, horseshoes and rabbit's feet ...

Loni Specter · Post by **Loni Specter** » 21 May 2003 9:44 pm

The swastika didn't proove to be such good luck for those Nazi A-holes after all. 'nuf said.

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 23 May 2003 4:00 am

The Doyperya brothers jointly founded and invented many guitars at National and later founded Dobro.Why was the guitar made?Was there a market in Germany?Many questions are raised by the swatstika guitar.