Safe sales transactions?

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 27 Dec 2004 10:09 pm

Is there such a thing as a safe on-line sales transaction? I need some advice for a present transaction on Ebay and any future ones I may make here since I'm in the Steel business now. I just sold a guitar for a healthy sum on Ebay. The buyer is from Australia. I stated on my item page that I could only take a money wire transfer or a Postal Money Order for payment. He wants to pay via Paypal and I won't accept it for this one transaction because I stand to lose too much with a chargeback.

Well...the buyer is skeptical about my shipping the guitar after he pays. I don't blame him but its causing a lot of problems. He wants to be as confident that he'll receive the guitar as I want to be about getting paid. Can someone help with these two questions below, or do you know of any way to do these on-line transactions safely for both buyer and seller?

1) Does Escrow protect the Seller (Ebay recommends one Escrow service)?

2) Is COD a safe thing to do and can it be done Internationally?

Thanks!

Leila

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 27 Dec 2004 11:01 pm

Leila, once the buyer hit the button he agreed to your terms as stated in the auction. If he is attempting to backstep on that agreement, that indicates he is not the kind of person who places much importance on keeping his word. He knows who you are, but you don't really know who he is. If you ship the guitar internationally before funds are secure, you run the risk of being swindled out of the entire amount of the guitar (plus shipping & Paypal charges). International COD is a no-go, you can forget about that. Escrow is iffy as well in an International situation.

I don't know all the details of this deal, but just from what you have stated in your post, I would say - stick to your original stipulations. Insist on payment as agreed - wire tranfer or International Postal Money Order, and don't ship until you have the funds secured. The buyer can then easily prove that he paid you, and he has the protection that eBay offers. On the other hand, if he stiffs you after receiving the guitar and disappears, there's not much you can do. And, to be blunt about it - this sounds like a con.
Better to lose a sale than lose the whole amount.

I hope it works out in your favor.
Rick

Aaron Schiff · Post by **Aaron Schiff** » 27 Dec 2004 11:39 pm

My first experience with selling through PayPal was negative and it took a couple years to decide to try them again. I am now quite satisfied. We even use Pay Pal to send money back and forth to a son in Alaska. Sure beats Western Union! Regarding your transaction, it seems you didn't think out the consequences of an international sale before you started it. I have had very good luck selling and buying internationally, but I am very careful to protect myself and the person across the ocean. For Christmas last year, I used PayPal and Ebay to buy an air conditioning unit in northern Italy for shipment to some elderly friends in southern Italy. It worked great. It is too bad that honest people in Australia, or even Indonesia, have to suffer the consequences of international fraud, but that's the way the world is. I would stick to your original terms. Those are the terms that the buyer agreed to when he made his bid. If this does not work out, I would relist the item, limit the sale to the U.S and Canada and give more consideration to PayPal. It is a very inexpensive way to move money securely.

Joey Aguilera · Post by **Joey Aguilera** » 27 Dec 2004 11:59 pm

He should have thought about his skepticism before he placed the bid. As Rick wrote, once he hit that button he agreed to your terms. This is one of the main reasons I never ship outside the US because it becomes such a hassle.

Unless you are dead set on selling this guitar right now I would probably work it out with the buyer to agree to cancel the transaction through ebay and then file for a selling fee refund.

Either way make sure that all your correspondence with him is through the Ebay contact form so that you can show a record of trying to work it out.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 28 Dec 2004 12:52 am

i have used paypal and i consider it to be, especially for Intl deals, a safe and guaranteed way of gettin the monies credited or debited
Leila, you, ll have to get hip as you get more involved w: ebay
obviously paypal is gonna take a commision so either you be prepared to pay it or work it out w: the buyer so that he pays it
paypal,s commission is not outrageous and is the price to pay that guarantees payment.
NEVER do a COD operation on Intl dealings
ask for the buyer fone number and call him so as to feel him out

Cartwright Thompson · Post by **Cartwright Thompson** » 28 Dec 2004 2:31 am

I would never accept a PayPal payment for an international sale. PayPal will not verify foriegn addresses so they don't offer their usual protection with these transactions. When I sell an item to an overseas buyer I insist on them using BidPay, which means that I get a money order from Western Union that I can cash before the item is shipped.

Brian Donegan · Post by **Brian Donegan** » 28 Dec 2004 5:27 am

Can't you just use a PayPal account, but ask the buyer to pay the additional fee that you will be charged from paypal. I know you cannot advertise that on an auction page, but since the auction ended and he is changing the terms it does not seem out of line for you to ask for a little bit to cover the paypal fee. Brian

Pete Knapton · Post by **Pete Knapton** » 28 Dec 2004 6:43 am

Leila, I buy (and sell) goods using eBay (USA). For me, good communication before bidding ensures clear understandings....and piece of mind.

I've found most folks in the US shy away from international buyers, mainly cause of previous shipping price hassels and shipment times... (USPS can be very slow. 4-10 days is currently 3 weeks. Economy can take up to 3 months!!!).

Leila, Can't you set up your own Paypal account, or use a friends account for this transaction? Definately ask for the paypal fees as you're accomodating the buyers request. Keep good records and get paid before you send.
Good luck and stay calm.

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 28 Dec 2004 7:09 am

As long as the BUYER agrees to pay all escrow charges, that is a safe way to go to give him peace of mind.

If you'd rather not deal with the hassle of escrow, you have the right to demand payment, noting that the terms of the auction were clearly stated and that he should have asked you questions about escrow, etc. beforehand.

BTW....the escrow service eBay recommends is pretty good, but pricey (and, I believe, is owned by eBay). It'd probably run close to $100 for a $2,000 guitar.

Joe

Alan Kirk · Post by **Alan Kirk** » 28 Dec 2004 7:37 am

Brian,

Charging extra for Paypal is against eBay rules, as I was so pointedly informed by eBay when I tried to do it.

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J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 28 Dec 2004 7:49 am

Good Morning,

I can't express enough how fortunate we are to have a Forum like this to bat ideas around on and to get good advice from each other on matters of important concerns, such as this one is to me. And the communication is so quick its mind-boggling. You all have helped me confirm what it is I need to do. Thank you so much for responding to my question.

I have one question left as two of you said in essence, "In no way do an International COD." My question is 'why not.' Maybe the USPS cannot be the guarantee of it working? I'm curious.

I didn't let Paypal be an option for payment for two reasons, first, the high fee that I'd have incurred with this sale, equal to the Ebay fee, and second, the fear of a chargeback, which the Buyer can do after he receives the guitar. He could in essence love the guitar, keep it, and get all his money back. Paypal would 'maybe' reimburse me for less than half that amount. Not worth the risk. The guitar sold for $2600 and I see no reason to agonize about a Paypal chargeback. I believe now that the only reason the Buyer insists on Paypal is so he CAN have the option of a chargeback.

I've sold more than 2,000 things on Ebay and the majority of those sales were for items worth less than 40 dollars. I receive payments via Paypal for most of these purchases without thinking twice about it. So as nice and convenient as it is to have Paypal for these normal transactions, in this case it just doesn't provide enough protection.

Bidpay was another thought but they won't take an International payment of more than $1000.

Here's what I'm going to do. I'll tell the poor fellow, or the crook, whichever the case may be, that my offer stands, to sell and send him the guitar when he makes the wire transfer or sends the Int'l Postal MO. Its just all too clear to me that "someone" has to take a risk in these transactions and its not going to be me.

I've got a Carter-Starter Pedal Steel and will soon want to buy a Pro-Steel. Can you imagine the wonderful Steel I can get for $2600 minus Ebay fees? Well, its a nice thought anyway.

I will say, to the Buyers credit, that he does sound honest, he has called me twice and sent a million emails, but he just won't bite the bullet and pay my way. Oh how I wish he'd made that decision before bidding. But after my email to him in a few minutes, he'll have a final choice to make. If he doesn't come through, I'll let him off the hook, get my Ebay fees back, relist the guitar, and you'd better believe this time it'll be a USA ONLY auction.

Which brings up one more question besides the COD one. One of you said make it a USA/Canada auction only. Why include Canada?

Again, thanks to all of you sooooo much for writing and helping me come to this risk-free solution!

Leila

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 28 Dec 2004 8:18 am

Leila,
Some advise about COD. If the guitar arrives at its destination and the fellow decides not to accept it, you have to pay to get it back. This has happened to me. That's what all those "freight salvage" places are all about.
Take care and your gospel tabs 'n tracks are in the mail.
Thanks dear!

Erv[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 28 December 2004 at 08:19 AM.][This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 28 December 2004 at 08:19 AM.]

Don Discher · Post by **Don Discher** » 28 Dec 2004 9:12 am

I was going to make a suggestion about your sale but if you don't want to include Canadaians for selling and shipping then i'll keep my suggestion to myself.I lost a sizeable amount to a USA buyer but that hasn't stopped me from selling or purchasing South of the border.

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 28 Dec 2004 9:34 am

Erv,

The possibility of having to pay approximately $155 to have the guitar shipped back to me is enough to make COD not worth doing. So COD does pose another risk to the seller. Thanks, that's just the info I needed.

I don't plan to ever have but a handful of high-priced items to sell on-line but these answers are helping me to better understand the pros and cons of the various methods of payment and hopefully it will help others too.

Leila

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 28 Dec 2004 5:00 pm

Im a record dealer on ebay, and use pay-pal alot and well pleased with it. I dont mind the little fees they charge i get my money fast and once its in your account its yours. I have a pay pal debit card and for large sums i usally go right to a atm machine take the money right out. usally 15 mins after its paid. i also deal alot of international buyers and they treat me well. 75% of my sales are out of the usa. i find some buyers there just send cash oh yes we all know its against postal rules but its there money not yours thats at a risk. I know you guys think oh its just records well some records are worth more then your emmons guitars lol. i would tell the guy to send me pay pal but in shipping area at a extra 3% of bid price paypal dont take out fees for the shipping but they do take 3% of the sale you get what im saying? or just send you cash, international money orders are very high. hope this helps

Loni Specter · Post by **Loni Specter** » 28 Dec 2004 5:38 pm

Did you say you had good feedback on eBay, I don't recall. If you do than he should trust you. If you don't, that's the problem. At any rate, I would only take a direct bank transfer from overseas. My bank charges $15.00 to recieve the funds for me. I build that into the price as part of the handling/shipping etc. After all it's a hassle filling out customs forms and such. If he doesn't do it your way, forget it.
I was a easy mark once and lost a few hundred bucks. Sometimes the nicest sounding people are the biggest cons. Be carefull.

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 28 Dec 2004 6:27 pm

Loni,

As of this moment I have 2,200 feedbacks and a rating of 99.9% positive. That's reason enough for him to trust me but it just wasn't enough for him to risk that kind of money. I told him today that I needed to stick to my terms of payment and he did decide after about 4 hours that as badly as he wanted the guitar he just couldn't take the risk if he couldn't use Paypal. (Paypal would have given him the option of a chargeback, which I couldn't risk).

I think of his stopping my auction with a 'Buy it Now' as a genuine mistake with no malice intended. This will be a mutual withdrawal so I won't lose anything. I'm really really sorry he couldn't muster up whatever it would take to trust me because I know he would have loved this guitar.

So I guess its all over now but the crying. Boo Hoo. Okay, now that's over too.

Thanks to everybody for such good help and if anyone wants to add any more knowledge to the 'safe payment' topic, please do.

Leila

John Hall · Post by **John Hall** » 30 Dec 2004 7:38 pm

As a buyer, I'm fine with Paypal for small amounts. When it comes to more significant payments, I'm more in favor of wire transfers. I recently made a transaction of the latter type and the money was in the seller's account within minutes. Cost me $13, but that's nothing really. Hey, I got my goods shipped at least three days early that way. To me, it was worth it.

john

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 30 Dec 2004 8:56 pm

John,

What the buyer is worried about is that once he wire transfers the money, he can't get it back if I don't ship the guitar. I'm sure that's why he tried so hard to talk me into accepting his Paypal payment, so he could have the security of a chargeback. But when there's a lot of money at stake, the Seller holds the Ace because both of us can't be 100% assured of getting the payment or the goods.

You're right, for smaller money amounts Paypal is good and quick. And $13 for a wire transfer is pretty cheap to send lots of money quickly and securely. But you must trust your Seller to send your item, and my Buyer wouldn't trust me. I'm relisting the guitar....

Leila

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 30 Dec 2004 9:30 pm

I sold a Peavey N–1000 to a fellow in Switzerland, which was a considerable amount of money + Shipping & Ins.. I also (several months ago) sold a PSG for $4000 + Shipping & Ins. to a fellow in the UK. I've also done business with a fellow forumite, Pete Knapton (New Zealand) and I guess I was just fortunate, because; I was trusted by all (3)-Buyers and was paid-in-advance by each buyer by Bank-Check or cash. They trusted me and I appreciate that and therefore I had a vey safe-feeling when shipping my merchandise. The fellow who bought my PSG was a person who had paid-in-full for a new steel several years ago, but; never received it! Still he was willing to take another chance and this time it paid off for him. That's real trust! Since you had a problem with payment, just consider the loss ‘all his’ and good luck with finding another buyer. It's a good feeling to be ‘Trusted’!
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“Big John” Bechtel
’49/’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-issue Fender Twin-Reverb Custom™ 15”
click here click here
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 30 December 2004 at 09:34 PM.][This message was edited by John Bechtel on 30 December 2004 at 09:46 PM.]

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 30 Dec 2004 10:10 pm

John,

There was nothing I could do to instill the trust he needed. His wife was the doubter. He and I talked on the phone at length and shared our Air Force experience, family life, etc. I even told him our son would be at the SAE school in Byron Bay 5 hours from him in March and told him he could hold him hostage if I didn't send the guitar. Nothing worked. He told me he'd wire the money but his wife wouldn't let him. She wanted more pictures. 14 photos on ebay weren't enough. By that time I'd given up. He was apologetic. The guitar is relisted. I wonder if he's still married.

Leila

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 31 Dec 2004 5:31 am

I have said time and time again, if you are going to make a FAMILY decision to buy a pedal steel, talk it over BEFORE you make solid plans on buying one !!....Guys look so WHIMPY when the wife gets involved AFTER a deal is already struck ..
I lost several pedal steel deals because of guys whimping out from pressure from the little lady .... Some women of the house wear the pants I guess ... I'm not saying not to include the little lady when making purchases, I'm just saying that she should be included BEFORE you sign on the dotted line !!....This guy is just as guilty for not including her earlier, and you guys know who you are !!......Jim

"My wife said if I buy one more pedal steel that she would leave me " ....." I sure do miss her !! " .....

Stick to your guns on payment.....You may also want to consider an international money order ....He will have a copy and the government will have a copy of the money order reciept ....Just a thought....You will BOTH be protected by the international money order ....Jim

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 31 Dec 2004 6:08 am

incidentally, i have found that bank transfers, even though efficient, cost more (to both parties)than Paypal
INTL MO works well too
BidPay won't take more than something around 700 US $
overall, i find that Paypal is the best way to go
it's reassuring to read here that some fo'bros trust intl relations and dealings.
too often, especially on ebay, some Americans consider Europa to be Indonesia.
i don't know if you've noticed but a lot of Europeans are taking advantage of the strength of their €uros to buy.
i'm like Erv, i keep the wife out of the picture. Then i gotta go hide under the bed

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 31 December 2004 at 06:11 AM.]

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 31 Dec 2004 7:28 am

The two payment options I gave in the auction were:

1 - International Postal Money Order
2 - Money Wire Transfer

Any other method of payment is risky for the Seller. Paypal is not safe. It was possible for the Buyer to have the guitar and his money back as well by using Paypal. Paypal would not reimburse my loss but by a very small percentage, if anything at all.

The guitar is relisted and you guys should just go bid.

Leila