Opions, please, on Weissenborn copies.

Terry Goodman · Post by **Terry Goodman** » 27 Feb 2003 3:09 pm

I am planning on buying a Weissenborn copy for a $1000 or less. I currently play a Beard reso and bakelite Rick (tuxedo)and now I've got to have a Weissenborn

I'm a decent player and would love to go for a bear creek or other top of the line instrument but the old bank account won't allow that now.

I gleamed what I could from past postings. I am considering a Superior Mexican from Berkely music or an instrument by Marc Silber. Anybody know anything about Silber instruments? Also, is the choice between cedar or spruce top just personal preference, or does one type of wood more define the weis sound?

Thanks.[This message was edited by Terry Goodman on 28 February 2003 at 06:25 AM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 27 Feb 2003 4:01 pm

Although I don't own one, I have tried out the different "Superior" models when I was in Berkeley last summer. Keep in mind that I only played them for about an hour or so.

They have very wide string spacing! Almost too much of a good thing, but I'll bet if you played it for a little while it wouldn't be a problem, and might even be kind of nice.

I noticed a definite difference in the sound depending on the top wood. The cedar is slightly darker and warmer, with the corresponding touch of muddiness when you strum. Not too bad though. The select spruce was much cleaner and brighter sounding, but almost too cold. Perhaps if you played it for a few months it would alter a bit and sound a little friendlier. The regular spruce was in between, although closer to the select than the cedar, obviously. It was my preference.

The strings seemed a little close to the fretboard, which I knocked once when hammering on at the twelfth fret. Maybe heavier strings would help that (although they actually had fairly heavy strings on it already, I think). Maybe the low action is the secret to why this guitar supposedly sounds so good plugged in, strings closer to the pickup or something. Hmm...

To my ear they didn't quite have that "classic" Weissenborn sound, that sweetness and depth (then again the only guitar I've played that did was a Style 2 Weissenborn at a store in Seattle--I even tried a Style 1 in Toronto which sounded mediocre). They're good in their own way though, and really the only game in town at that price.

-Travis

P.S. If you're going to be playing the guitar with a pickup on stage you might consider just buying a nice old regular guitar and having it modified for lap playing. Take the money you saved on the guitar and put it into a Sunrise or something. There's a clip of Kelly Joe Phelps (who plays a modified regular guitar, albeit a good one) through what is almost certainly a Sunrise on the unofficial site (the clip w/ Bill Frisell). It comes pretty close to that Lindleyesque tone and no Weissenborn required. Just a thought.

Dylan Schorer · Post by **Dylan Schorer** » 27 Feb 2003 4:26 pm

I'm not sure what the difference is between the Marc Silber instruments and those by Berkeley Music, if any. Marc Silber and George Katechis of Berkeley Music were, until recently, partners in creating the K & S Hawaiian guitars.

I've played a few of the Superior Weissenborn-styles, and they sound very, very good for the money.

Terry Goodman · Post by **Terry Goodman** » 27 Feb 2003 4:52 pm

Marc's guitars can be found at http://www.marcsilbermusic.com/.

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 27 Feb 2003 5:56 pm

Terry;

You may also want to consider <a href=http://www.telusplanet.net/~gsimmons/weissenborn/>Neil Russell's Weissenborn replicas</a> - he builds a fine instrument for under $1000

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website

[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 27 February 2003 at 05:58 PM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 27 Feb 2003 6:00 pm

As for Kelly Joe Phelps, there's a great live video clip of him here ("Planet Dobro"): http://www.mphase.com/planetd2.htm

PLEASE, no more negative comments about the Superior Hawaiians, I will be receiving one in a weeks time.....

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 27 Feb 2003 6:02 pm

Both Marc Silber and Berkeley Music make Weissenborn copies, probably the best value in such instruments currently. The guitars are built in Mexico with final finishing work in Berkeley, CA.
Either guitar should represent a good choice. I work pretty close to these shops and would be happy to drop by and try out some instruments for you

.
I'd agree with Travis' suggestion re: modifying a good acoustic guitar. I own an Oahu teacher model acoustic steel guitar (that's not mine in the picture) that's one of the best sounding acoustic instruments out there. I plan on amplifying it some day, but that's another topic.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

[This message was edited by Brad Bechtel on 27 February 2003 at 06:08 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 27 Feb 2003 6:07 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention the Neil Russell Weissenborn copies which are about $900US. There are some pictures on the web (Google "Neil Russell Weissenborn") and possibly even in the forum archives. To hear what they sound like listen to any album by Zubot & Dawson, or Steve Dawson's solo album. Steve records the sound they make pretty faithfully, so you'll get a good idea. There might be some clips on the web.

Again, to me they don't have that "classic" Weissenborn sound, but it's good in its own way.

Oh, and don't worry Steinar, I'm sure you'll be very happy with your guitar. For all that I nitpick about minutiae like string-spacing (for crying out loud!) I'd LOVE to own one and I'm intensely jealous.

-Travis[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 27 February 2003 at 06:10 PM.][This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 27 February 2003 at 06:20 PM.]

Dwight Mark · Post by **Dwight Mark** » 27 Feb 2003 10:23 pm

The Superiors are nice instruments. The wide spring spacing and low string height can be easily fixed with a new nut. I like the wide string spacing since I bend behind the slide. When there's tight string spacing I can't get the note up to pitch without running into the string behind.
The cedar top sounds softer or less hard than the koa Weissenborns and has a deeper sound to me, but I tune it down lower.
I got to check out Steve Dawsons Neil Russell Weissenborn. It was built heavy, which is probably good for as much as he travels with it. Neil told me that was an early one and he builds them a little lighter now.
I'm curious how Steve records his instrument. I was wondering if he keeps the Sunrise in there and mics it.
I've played some really nice sounding and some cheezy sounding Oahu's.

Dwight[This message was edited by Dwight Mark on 27 February 2003 at 10:25 PM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 28 Feb 2003 8:41 am

Terry, the key aspect of your post is what defines the Weissenborn sound"? Is it tone wood choice?" construction? It's a mysterious issue. I own a Bear Creek and Bill Hardin's goal in making these axes is to duplicate the original tone with modern high-quality contruction. My BC comes close to the originals and yet there's something about the 3 or 4 vintage Weissenborn's I've played that's unduplicated in all the copies I've played - even mine.

That said, Marc Silber's guitars are quite good for the price and I'd agree with others here that for your budget, they're the best bet..[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 28 February 2003 at 08:44 AM.]

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » 28 Feb 2003 9:26 am

yet there's something about the 3 or 4 vintage Weissenborn's I've played that's unduplicated in all the copies I've played

I think that 'something' is 70 years of being played.
I offer a 'break in' service for nice instruments. It's free but does take a while.

[This message was edited by Mike D on 28 February 2003 at 11:12 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 28 Feb 2003 9:29 am

Just a wild guess from me, but could it be as simple as the wood of the originals having aged "with grace"?
Who knows what one of todays copies will sound like in 70+ years.

PS - Ahhh, I see Mike beat me on this...

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 28 February 2003 at 09:30 AM.]

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 28 Feb 2003 11:59 am

another maker of excellent weissenborn-type guitars is michael dunn in vancouver bc. he is widely known for his django-style guitars but also makes great hawaiian models. they're a bit more expensive than your price point but they are as close as i've heard to an actual weissenborn sound. mine has that buttery-rich tone that i associate with those guitars and the workmanship is top notch. they are very lightly built like the originals so i don't really think of mine as a road guitar but i use it for sessions, local gigs and its just fun to play at home and for jamming.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 28 Feb 2003 1:35 pm

On the issue of the "aged" wood making a difference in tone. I've played two actual Weissenborns, the Superior copies, a Neil Russell, and a Yanuziello. I've heard a Dunn up close but didn't play it (very light, as was said earlier).

One thing I've noticed is that most of the guitars had a tuning that they sounded best in. It was different for all of them but usually I found that there was one tuning that really brought out the best in the instrument. No idea why.

The only guitar that this wasn't true for was that Style 2 I mentioned before. That guitar sounded great no matter what you tuned it to. The guy in the store speculated that it was because it was so old, and had been played for so long in various tunings. I don't know if that's true, but I can definitely say that that guitar had something all the others didn't.

-Travis

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 28 Feb 2003 6:26 pm

Over the past 40 years or there has been a certain amount of scientific inquiry as to why certain older instruments (usually violins) sound so good. In the case of Antonio Stradaveri's violins, it's been theorized that bacteria in the waters near Cremona Italy had something to do with enhancing the resonnace of the wood cells. I've read in various places that years of vibrations do indeed contributute to the sound quality of some vintage instruments but this is very subjective territory.

From personal experience having played 3 vintage Weissenborns, a Hilo, a John Pierce, a Superior and an English brand whose name escapes me, I can say that a Style One and my Bear Creek are my favorites. The Bear Creek has a throaty, piano-like sound that responds to the pick attack with quite a bit of volume. The Style One had a honey-coated tone with more harmonics than the Bear Creek. My reaction at the time was: "Aha! THIS is the magical sound they talk about."

Bob Brozman believes that the grain structure of the Koa affects whether a given Weissenborn will offer a louder fundamental and quick decay or start out with less initital volume but offer more sustain and overtones.

Joseph Yanuziello told me that he has little interest in duplicating vintage Weissenborn tone and that he strives for sort of a Martin sound with enhanced sustain.

As for the scientific basis for any of this touchy feely guitar angst, Rick Aiello, care to jump in?

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 28 Feb 2003 6:43 pm

As for the scientific basis for any of this touchy feely guitar angst, Rick Aiello, care to jump in?

Outa my league .... none of my favorite guitars are wooden

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

Dwight Mark · Post by **Dwight Mark** » 1 Mar 2003 2:32 am

Andy, your comments on Bob Brozman's thoughts are interesting, considering he plays those style 4 flamey Weissenborns, and Lindley and others seem to claim they like the unflamed plain style 1 Weissenborns.
I wonder what the difference in the two grades of wood is and if one grade would make a better top wood vs. a side and back wood.

Dwight

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 1 Mar 2003 6:25 am

Brozman went into this topic at some length when I interviewed him but in a nutshell, he feels the straight grained koa emphasizes the fundamental while the curly Koa presents less initial volume but offer more sustain & harmonics. He feels that since he uses high-end amplification, he'd make the trade off for sustain any day. David Lindley & Bob have apparently been discussing this difference in weissenborn preferences for years. I beleive an additional wrinkle (no pun intended) is whether the wood comes from an area that gets more rain or not as this apparently has effects on grain patterns.

Then again - per this link - maybe we should just open the guitar case and pour in an extra large box of TIDE or WHISK?
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/society_culture/fiddling_around_the_lab.htm [This message was edited by Andy Volk on 01 March 2003 at 06:26 AM.]

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » 1 Mar 2003 7:10 am

Andy, your comments on Bob Brozman's thoughts are interesting, considering he plays those style 4 flamey Weissenborns, and Lindley and others seem to claim they like the unflamed plain style 1 Weissenborns.
I wonder what the difference in the two grades of wood is and if one grade would make a better top wood vs. a side and back wood.

I've talked to a few other builders and players about Koa. Many people feel that Koa is one of the more 'chancy' woods when it comes to good tone. Some are great, some not so. Koa does vary a lot in density, Even in the same piece, and the flame in Koa is actually (like in all flamed woods) grain runout. if you looked at the side of the board the grain looks like this ~~~~~~~~ instead of like this ------
This would be unacceptable in a Spruce top and no builder would ever use it (although some builders do use Spruce tops with bearclaw figure, it's a little bit different)
Boards with runout are not as stiff longitudinally (sp?) as boards with little or no runout. Koa is stronger that spruce of course so you can get by with it as a top but it still makes a difference. This is likely why Brozman hears a louder, more direct tone from a plain piece.
I don't think there is any right or wrong, just differences and what people prefer.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 1 Mar 2003 8:33 am

All opinions about tonewoods are inherently generalizations as each individual tree and board has it's own characteristics. Then the builder enters the equation with his/her craftsmanship and the tone clock starts ticking as wood choice, craftsmanship, design and time all come into play. I agree that guitars seem to respond better in some tunings than others - no doubt due to the nature of the overtone series.

Terry Goodman · Post by **Terry Goodman** » 5 Mar 2003 8:35 am

Hey everybody, thanks for all the great responses. Sorry for not responding earlier but I've been out of town.

There are a couple of things I'm thinking about now. The wife has raised the spending limit to $2500 (think I'll keep her), so now I'm in the Bear Creek or Dunn class.

At the same time, although I have my wife's permission, bottom line is I gotta make the payments on what ever I buy. For that reason I'm interested Travis's idea of maybe going with a decent acoutic setup lap style. What I could get buy with is a decent acoutic (squareneck, non-resonator preferred), that I can tune in D or E.

Having said all that, here are some more questions.

Orville, I've emailed Michael Dunn and he has a couple of models available. One Koa and birds eye maple, the other Koa and rosewood (don't remember what type). I know it's all about what I want, but do you have any opinions on wood types? What type of wood is your guitar? BTW, the mardi gras song (don't remember the exact name) on the Lap Steel Legends CD is great. Great playing and tone!!

Andy, what model Bear Creek do you own? I'm looking at the Hollowneck MK addition in Koa with a satin finish. What's your advice on wood types, etc?

Brad, your comments about the Oahu interest me. How much do they generally run? Are they still in production? Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Terry

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 5 Mar 2003 10:44 am

I have an all-Koa MK hollowneck with a couple of custom touches ... style-4 inlays, enhanced bracing for high-tension tunings, and a figured top. Mine was also the 1st MK to have Rosewood binding instead of plastic. Bill used to have a photo of my guitar on his site. As to opinions/info re woods, check out this discussion:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/002720.html [This message was edited by Andy Volk on 05 March 2003 at 10:44 AM.]

David Siegler · Post by **David Siegler** » 5 Mar 2003 12:51 pm

Terry,

If the Dunn, in Koa and Birdseye Maple, is the one at Eric Schoenberg Guitars in California it is wonderful. A very rich sounding and easy playing instrument. It is worth checking out. I probably would have bought it if I didn't already have a Neil Russel guitar in the works.
http://www.om28.com/es/stock.htm#Anchor-Michael-11481

Ed Gerhard · Post by **Ed Gerhard** » 5 Mar 2003 2:31 pm

Hi-
Glad to see that your budget has increased; now you're in the zone where a real instrument can be purchased.
Of the few Weissenborn copies I've played, Michael Dunn's came the closest to sounding like a real Weissenborn. I played one at a NAMM show a few years back (spruce and ?) and it was loud, sweet and light as a feather. Bill Hardin at Bear Creek makes exceptional guitars (the quality and workmanship are flawless) and there's a guy in Florida named Rich Mermer who's making some real nice ones as well. Rich's guitars are a bit non traditional but look and sound great. I've only played one instrument from each of these guys, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
My only experience with downmarket Weissenborn copies are with K&S guitars, which I believe is the forerunner of Superior. I got one years back when I needed one quick to finish a record I was making at the time. Without slamming them too hard, let's just say that, judging from my instrument, the cost of one plus the inevitable and frequent repair bills would total more than the cost of getting a good one in the first place. Hopefully they've improved. I tour with mine rather than bringing my real Weissenborns on the road, and it sounds great with a pickup. You've got some good choices in your new price bracket. Good luck.
Cheers,
Ed
P.S. This is my first post to the forum, though I've enjoyed reading it for some time now. Looking forward to chatting with you all.

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 5 Mar 2003 4:08 pm

my dunn weissenborn is made entirely of yellow cedar. it has some reddish colored mexican wood (i never can remember the name) for the fingerboard and rope binding. it is gorgeously golden as well as great sounding. i've played a koa-maple and it sounded excellent to me. i think for the price you can't beat his guitars. i've played bear creeks and russells and i played a really nice one from listmember jason lollar but i'm very happy with my dunn. have fun making your decision!