That blues-y squawk
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
That blues-y squawk
There's a certain sound electric slide players get that I can only describe as a "squawk, quack, or mewing"- Duane Allman made it famous.I always chalked it up to something to do with Les Pauls and bottlenecks- so I was surprised to watch a guy get THAT SOUND out of a lap steel- It was a 40's National (horseshoe pickup!); he was playing with a dobro bar and bare fingers. An overdriven amp seems to be part of the formula, and I got a little closer with tight heavy strings- but I still don't know if the trick's in the amp, guitar, slide, hand, strings, or pickup. Anybody know what I'm talking about?
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Steinar Gregertsen
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I've played bottleneck style for nearly 30 years, on and off (regular guitar has always been my main thing), and I would say it's in the phrasing and hands. When I finally got the "mew" right, it was no problem getting that sound on more or less any guitar.
Then, when I started playing lap steel some 3-4 years ago it was fairly easy for me to transfer that sound to the lap steel when I wanted to (but usually I don't see any point in making my lap steel playing sound just like my bottleneck..).
I hope I don't come across as bragging or anything, that's certainly not my intention, but like so many other things in guitar playing, I would say it's in the hand. Or at least, it STARTS with the hands. A slightly overdriven amp sure doesn't hurt either, but I never practice with an amp, I want to be able to hear "my" sound when playing completely dry,- that way I'm pretty sure it will come across when plugging into an amp.
Don't know if this made any sense at all, though....(?)
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 07 March 2003 at 05:55 PM.]</p></FONT>
Then, when I started playing lap steel some 3-4 years ago it was fairly easy for me to transfer that sound to the lap steel when I wanted to (but usually I don't see any point in making my lap steel playing sound just like my bottleneck..).
I hope I don't come across as bragging or anything, that's certainly not my intention, but like so many other things in guitar playing, I would say it's in the hand. Or at least, it STARTS with the hands. A slightly overdriven amp sure doesn't hurt either, but I never practice with an amp, I want to be able to hear "my" sound when playing completely dry,- that way I'm pretty sure it will come across when plugging into an amp.
Don't know if this made any sense at all, though....(?)
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 07 March 2003 at 05:55 PM.]</p></FONT>Page,
Are you referring to that mewing sound that Dickie Betts or Dwayne got from their guitars in the Allman Brothers? Example: the opening notes of "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" where Betts does this little soft mewling sound? He probably stole the idea from a steel player. He would hook his little finger around the volume control on the guitar and open and close the volume in time with each note. That softened the attack and forced a decay before the next note so it sounds almost voicelike. Steel players have done the same with the volume knob on their steels and some players use a foot volume control to do essentially the same thing.
Another neat sound is to strike a harmonic and then slide up or down the string, which gives an eerie wailing sound. Listen to the opening lead notes of the classic "Sleepwalk" and you'll hear it.
I don't know if the3se sounds are what you're referring to or not, but I hope this helps.
RB
Are you referring to that mewing sound that Dickie Betts or Dwayne got from their guitars in the Allman Brothers? Example: the opening notes of "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" where Betts does this little soft mewling sound? He probably stole the idea from a steel player. He would hook his little finger around the volume control on the guitar and open and close the volume in time with each note. That softened the attack and forced a decay before the next note so it sounds almost voicelike. Steel players have done the same with the volume knob on their steels and some players use a foot volume control to do essentially the same thing.
Another neat sound is to strike a harmonic and then slide up or down the string, which gives an eerie wailing sound. Listen to the opening lead notes of the classic "Sleepwalk" and you'll hear it.
I don't know if the3se sounds are what you're referring to or not, but I hope this helps.
RB
This is 23K sample of the opening riff of "Statesboro Blues" from the Allman Bros Live at the Fillmore East.
It's in the hands and ankle (volume pedal). A vintage Les Paul and corciden bottle would be authentic, but I can pull it off on my Carter PSG with some Mesa Boogie Studio PreAmp distortion.
It's in the hands and ankle (volume pedal). A vintage Les Paul and corciden bottle would be authentic, but I can pull it off on my Carter PSG with some Mesa Boogie Studio PreAmp distortion.
Joey, I couldn't get your link to work- but thanks for the effort. I think you know what I'm gettin' at... do you think a volume move is part of it? It seems like it's minute timing of a short slide and a hammer-on, and you have to catch the picked sting in just the right way- and somehow tube distortion and harmonics kick in- though Steinar says he can get it acoustically...?
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Steinar Gregertsen
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Page, I'm getting a little confused as to whether I've understood you right or not..
What I'm referring to is the kind of "moan" or the way a tone "grows" after you've hit it. Is that what you meant? (Remember english is not my first language, so I may have misunderstood).
Anyway, what I'm talking about is made by letting the right amount of pressure on the strings and vibrato work with each other, it's really hard to explain (for me, at least) it's just something that's become "second nature" over the years.
This way I get the tone to grow into a sort of "moan" that also can be heard acoustically, but of course not as well as when you're plugged in. Just enough to assure me I haven't lost it. But after reading the rest of the posts I suspect we're talking about different things, - are we?
Anyway,- practicing acoustically has always worked well for me, I've always regarded electric guitars (and lap steels) as acoustic instruments that you have to make sound good acoustically if you want to sound good when plugged in. But that's just me, what works for me isn't necessarily right for others.
PS - for some reason this has always been easiest to get when using my bare fingers,- no nails or fingerpicks. It may have something to do with the softer attack of my fingers making it easier to let the tone grow, I don't know.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 08 March 2003 at 03:31 PM.]</p></FONT>
What I'm referring to is the kind of "moan" or the way a tone "grows" after you've hit it. Is that what you meant? (Remember english is not my first language, so I may have misunderstood).
Anyway, what I'm talking about is made by letting the right amount of pressure on the strings and vibrato work with each other, it's really hard to explain (for me, at least) it's just something that's become "second nature" over the years.
This way I get the tone to grow into a sort of "moan" that also can be heard acoustically, but of course not as well as when you're plugged in. Just enough to assure me I haven't lost it.
But after reading the rest of the posts I suspect we're talking about different things, - are we?Anyway,- practicing acoustically has always worked well for me, I've always regarded electric guitars (and lap steels) as acoustic instruments that you have to make sound good acoustically if you want to sound good when plugged in. But that's just me, what works for me isn't necessarily right for others.
PS - for some reason this has always been easiest to get when using my bare fingers,- no nails or fingerpicks. It may have something to do with the softer attack of my fingers making it easier to let the tone grow, I don't know.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 08 March 2003 at 03:31 PM.]</p></FONT>
Joey, I get this message from your link:
"Directly downloading images is not permitted on the Netfirms FREE plan..."
and can't get any farther.
Yeah, this is a tough one to describe in words- what I DON'T mean is the volume swell thing Betts does, I know that one. Duane would hit a note with a little "smear" that would make a "yelp" when sliding up, and sort of a "mew" when sliding down. A lot of electric slide players do it, I've just always associated it with D.A.
"Directly downloading images is not permitted on the Netfirms FREE plan..."
and can't get any farther.
Yeah, this is a tough one to describe in words- what I DON'T mean is the volume swell thing Betts does, I know that one. Duane would hit a note with a little "smear" that would make a "yelp" when sliding up, and sort of a "mew" when sliding down. A lot of electric slide players do it, I've just always associated it with D.A.
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David Reeves
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Rick Aiello
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Page, are you referring to the practice of picking a string at some "random spot" below the note and then sliding into it ... and once there immediately starting the vibrato ... incorporating that initial slide into the vibrato pattern ?
Then there is kinda the reverse ... picking a note followed by an immediate slide down to a "random spot" then leaping to the next note.
Often these two are combined in the same 2 or 3 note sequence.
Jerry Byrd calls this "scooping" and discourages it ... unfortunately I employ this technigue TOO often for the Hawaiian music I play ... but it's my way
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www.horseshoemagnets.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 08 March 2003 at 07:23 PM.]</p></FONT>
Then there is kinda the reverse ... picking a note followed by an immediate slide down to a "random spot" then leaping to the next note.
Often these two are combined in the same 2 or 3 note sequence.
Jerry Byrd calls this "scooping" and discourages it ... unfortunately I employ this technigue TOO often for the Hawaiian music I play ... but it's my way
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www.horseshoemagnets.com <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 08 March 2003 at 07:23 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Steinar Gregertsen
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From listening to that mp3 I would say most of it is in the right hand attack. Hard to explain technically (you don't plan a trip to Norway in the near future? ).
I've also found the position between bridge and middle pickup on a strat to work very well for this type of sound, it is very sensitive to the dynamics of your attack and "shapes" the sound well according to it, allthough Allman probably used a Les Paul or SG on this cut.
). I've also found the position between bridge and middle pickup on a strat to work very well for this type of sound, it is very sensitive to the dynamics of your attack and "shapes" the sound well according to it, allthough Allman probably used a Les Paul or SG on this cut.
Rick- yes, thats it- but with a really strong attack that causes that little yelp- possibly a harmonic from the pick or tube distortion? It's a really raw bluesy thing, Jerry would NOT approve, I'm sure...!
Steinar- yes, he had a red SG at that point. I remember now. But, like I said I saw a guy doing it barefingered on a National with a single coil pickup, that's what's buggin' me...
Steinar- yes, he had a red SG at that point. I remember now. But, like I said I saw a guy doing it barefingered on a National with a single coil pickup, that's what's buggin' me...
Hi Page!
I love the blues. Thx for a great discussion! I'm with Steinar on this point. I hope I'm not too late to throw in 2 cents?
Most bottle neck players follow one of two styles: Elmore James took his inspiration from the very raw, Delta playing of Robert Johnson. He used an amplified acoustic most of the time, played REAL fast, didnt damp much, developed the 'scoop' sound to mimic harp playing & used the overtones & feedback from the soundbox as an asset. You cant beat it for pure energy. Johnny Winters is the closest 'modern' disciple of Elmore- also Hound Dog Taylor, Ellen McIlwaine.
Muddy Waters took his inspiration from guys like Tampa Red & Fred Macdowell. Also Delta bluesmen, but slightly more sophisticated guitarists. Muddyy always played in tune, always finger blocked and played in a distorted, but more controlled style. Muddy's descendents would be Pete Ham, Lowell George, & Bonnie Raitt.
Duane synthesized the two styles. He used solid body Gibsons & early humbuckers through a stack of Marshalls for fat mids & endless sustain. He always carefully finger blocked & played without a pick to lessen the attack, yet heighten sensitivity. The finger blocking allowed Duane to play at higher distortion levels than most of us are comfortable with.
I can emulate Duane's style on my wooden-body 'Rick' through the 'dirty' channel on my Peavey clasic 30 with the o\d turned almost all the way up. (No double stops though!) Remember to finger block, use a little vibrato & 'scoop' sparingly. It works, try it!
Nobody sounds like Duane exactly today, but Bruce Bouton (Brooks & Dunn, Shania), Kim Deschamps (Cowboy Junkies), Robert Randolph & Ben Harper have alot in common with Duane's style.
I love the blues. Thx for a great discussion! I'm with Steinar on this point. I hope I'm not too late to throw in 2 cents?
Most bottle neck players follow one of two styles: Elmore James took his inspiration from the very raw, Delta playing of Robert Johnson. He used an amplified acoustic most of the time, played REAL fast, didnt damp much, developed the 'scoop' sound to mimic harp playing & used the overtones & feedback from the soundbox as an asset. You cant beat it for pure energy. Johnny Winters is the closest 'modern' disciple of Elmore- also Hound Dog Taylor, Ellen McIlwaine.
Muddy Waters took his inspiration from guys like Tampa Red & Fred Macdowell. Also Delta bluesmen, but slightly more sophisticated guitarists. Muddyy always played in tune, always finger blocked and played in a distorted, but more controlled style. Muddy's descendents would be Pete Ham, Lowell George, & Bonnie Raitt.
Duane synthesized the two styles. He used solid body Gibsons & early humbuckers through a stack of Marshalls for fat mids & endless sustain. He always carefully finger blocked & played without a pick to lessen the attack, yet heighten sensitivity. The finger blocking allowed Duane to play at higher distortion levels than most of us are comfortable with.
I can emulate Duane's style on my wooden-body 'Rick' through the 'dirty' channel on my Peavey clasic 30 with the o\d turned almost all the way up. (No double stops though!) Remember to finger block, use a little vibrato & 'scoop' sparingly. It works, try it!
Nobody sounds like Duane exactly today, but Bruce Bouton (Brooks & Dunn, Shania), Kim Deschamps (Cowboy Junkies), Robert Randolph & Ben Harper have alot in common with Duane's style.
You nailed it- it's the bare fingers! That allows you to keep the gain absurdly high. Not easy...
I hadn't thought about it, but of course- it's imitating a blues harp- that's exactly what's going on.
I picked up this little tidbit: Lowell George used 2 compressors in series- gets a little noisy, but that's how he got his sound (but I don't know what brand)
I hadn't thought about it, but of course- it's imitating a blues harp- that's exactly what's going on.
I picked up this little tidbit: Lowell George used 2 compressors in series- gets a little noisy, but that's how he got his sound (but I don't know what brand)