an alternative to tablature?

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 8 May 2002 10:36 am

Recently, I have been trying to come to grips with learning to play other people's song interpretations using tablature. It works if the tablature fits my guitar setup. It falls apart when the tablature is written for a different setup. There are the two "standard" setups. E9th and C6th with all their subtle variations. Then there are the "million" different universal, sacred steel, E7th, E6th, etc. setups. I would like to see a form of tablature that is not setup specific. Musical notation would work if the range of the steel were not so dynamic. You lose me after two lines above or below the staff. Has anyone pondered this problem? Would something like scale numbers work? The tablature would have to have 5 divisions to accomodate the dynamic range of the instrument, if you include extended E9th or Universal 12. It might have to go further if you include the universal 14. Any thoughts?

What I'd like to see is a song laid out so that I could play it on my guitar regardless of tuning. There may be some squeezes that I would not be able to do but the notes are there on my guitar.

Karlis Abolins

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 8 May 2002 4:55 pm

Karlis, you are in luck, there is a system as you describe, it is called MUSYM-TAB. "PEDAL STEEL GUITAR a manual of style" is a book available from Tom Bradshaw http://www.songwriter.com/bradshaw/iother.html [This message was edited by Larry Miller on 08 May 2002 at 05:58 PM.]

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 8 May 2002 5:34 pm

Larry, have you seen or used this system?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 8 May 2002 6:05 pm

Karlis
I use a version of this system with my tab courses. The basic principle is that instead of placing a fret number on a string with a pedal modifier such as "10A" (10th fret pedal A), or "8E" (8th fret, E lever), the pedal/lever functions are shown with "#" (sharps) and "b" (flat) signs. So, in the examples just given for the E9th tuning, the fret/pedal designations would be "10##" and "8b."

A 1/2 tone raise or lower would be signified by a single "#" or "b," a double raise or lower by a "##" or "bb." And so on. You get the idea, I'm sure.

The reason for this is twofold: First, the terminology for what the levers and pedals do is imprecise; guys have pedal changes that do different things apart from the "standard" changes. So, regardless of what you have for pedals/levers "10##" means "place the bar on the 10th fret and use whatever pedal/lever you have to raise the string two half-tones."

Secondly, many guys frankly don't know what their pedals/levers do! I've had students tell me "all I know is I'm supposed to hit string 4 and use my 'F' lever." This system forces the student to be aware of the changes he's making to the tuning when he's utilizing certain pedals or levers.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 08 May 2002 at 07:06 PM.]

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 8 May 2002 6:45 pm

Herb, Your system makes a lot of sense. It doesn't, however, let me play with a different tuning. My strings would still have to be the same as the tab or I would have to rearrange the tab. How about specifying the scale number instead of string number and fret? What I would like to see is tab that I could play on any guitar as long as I know where the scale notes are on the guitar. So I would see the piece written in the key of G. The tab would say 3 3# 5 5##, etc. In this way, I would find the best place to put this together on my neck, whether it is C6th or E9th or whatever. There is the problem of specifying the octave. I don't see an easy way to specify octave unless the tab were separated into vertical bands with each band being an octave above the band below it.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 8 May 2002 7:41 pm

Karlis, it sounds like you need to take some time to learn to read music from a musical staff. That method has been around for centuries and is the proven method of showing notes, exact and relative pitch, timing, etc.

Once you learn the relationship of the notes on the staff to the scale tones of the key the song is written in, you can easily mentally "transpose" to your desired method of viewing the notes on your guitar.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 8 May 2002 7:50 pm

Karlis,
I think you're trying to re-invent writing music. "Tab" was specifically designed in order to be able to indicate exactly which string and fret to play something on, for people who don't read music. If you don't want the tab to indicate the string and fret (because you're going to use a different tuning), then you really don't need tab at all. You just need to learn to read music!

I suppose you could have your music translated into the number system, so it woulc be as you say, 4, 4#, 5, etc., but I think it would be a lot easier, and better in the long run, to make the investment in learning to read music fluently. Just MHO, FWIW.

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The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 8 May 2002 8:58 pm

Gentlemen, I agree that using musical notation is the ultimate approach. I never studied music, but can hack my way through sheet music. The problem I see is the dynamic range of the steel guitar. It is a couple of octaves short of the dynamic range of the piano.When you lay out the scale for an extended e9th it looks like this.

David Norris · Post by **David Norris** » 8 May 2002 11:33 pm

I must say that being able to see the value of the notes and the rythm helps alot....but tab also has it's advantages in regards to positioning....a combination of the two would be living in a utopian society....

David

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MSA Doubleneck Super Sustain II Classic
National Lap Steel
Dobro
click here to check out my country tunes
click here to check out my rock tunes

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 9 May 2002 6:48 am

Karlis, I use the treble stave only and start
my scale with Low "E". This gives me the
"dynamic range" you refer to in your postings. It is the same approach used by classical and fingerstyle guitar players. Is now and has been for hundreds of years.
Your idea though about using the scale number for the melody line of a song is an interesting one. You are the first to mention it so far as I know. Many musicaians refer to chords by the scale tones. It is a very common practice. For the melody line, like you say it would work for any tuning. A "universal" idea to say the least.
Actually it would work for any instrument also.
Pass it by a piano player or trumpet player etc.

Thanks for posting.

Roy Thomson

[This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 09 May 2002 at 07:50 AM.][This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 09 May 2002 at 07:56 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 9 May 2002 6:56 am

Click - Tab might be a help to you.
Here is the link: http://www.clictab.com/

As I understand it, this allows you to get around all the different copedant setps.
You put in your setup, and then it decodes the the tab so that it appears according to your particular setup.
I haven't used it but I think that's how it was described to me.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 9 May 2002 1:01 pm

Clicktab works by putting in your pedal setup, do your tab and then the program prints out the notation.

Erv

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 9 May 2002 1:18 pm

The problem Karlis is having as I read him is that he would like to be able to play the tab arrangements "of others".
Different tunings, pedal/knee lever set ups string numbers etc. makes this difficult.
Correct me if I'm wrong Karlis.

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 9 May 2002 4:24 pm

Roy, I think you got the gist of where I am going with this. I really don't know if it is possible. Tablature is really deeply rooted for good reason. The portability of music to different guitars is my goal. It is my opinion that all the notes are on the guitar. I should be able to figure out how to play them once I know my guitar.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 9 May 2002 5:03 pm

Tablature, is by definition, tuning specific. MuSymTab and ClicTab are the only tablature programs I know of that print the lead line and/or the harmonies along with the tab. I think the only way to accomplish what you want is to read the music and find the notes on your tuning.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 10 May 2002 11:25 am

I have ClicTab. I guess by now, I should
realize [and I do] that all of these software programs, while providing some great
concepts, can't fullfill every little nuance.
ClicTab does have it's limitations. It will
find and locate pretty much stock chords, even the 5ths, 9ths, 13ths. If you decide to alter these chords by adding a note here and there, then CT rebukes.
Pretty much, so far anyway, the chords I've
punched and fiddled with within CT, well, CT
comes up with positions I already know. No
surprises for me, here. Still a handy tool,
however.

Dayton Osland · Post by **Dayton Osland** » 15 May 2002 9:25 am

I had written this long reply and switched to another site momentarily and lost it.

Oh well it was too long.

The gist was that standard music notation does a great job of communicating music to multiple instruments. You don't need to know the chords by name - they are written out. But - you can't share it with a simple word processor.

Tab on the other hand, must be linked to your instrument. It is providing the role of teacher. It shows position clearly and where bends or pedal action are required and so forth. Tab for mandolin is radically different from tab for pedal steel. It can take a lot of experimenting to find a playable position from standard notation especially for less experienced players. If one is attempting to exactly reproduce a selection done by someone else, tab provides the only method to do this.

Tab and trumpet was mentioned. There is tab for trumpet on the interenet. Its pretty strange: a B2 indicates the second highest B on the trumpet a -B2 indicates a B flat and a +C2 indicates a second highest C sharp. There is no timing or dynamics shown. Clearly this would be better communicated with notation - but that requires more sophistication in postings.

Two software packages that work well for me are: Noteworthy composer ( http://www.noteworthysoftware.com ). This works with standard music notation - multiple staffs for multiple instruments and so forth. The other is Tabledit: ( http://www.tabledit.com ). Tabledit has been discussed at length on the forum. I attempted to use Clicktab but didn't have the patience to set it up right. Its probably easier now.

Any notation/tab program is a bit tedious to use, so plan on spending some time getting good at it. Amoung other things, learn the "keyboard shortcuts". It is so much faster to hit the + a couple of times in Noteworthy than to move the mouse to select a smaller duration note.

I hope this helps. I read music (both trumpet and piano) on the trumpet and use tab almost exclusively for Pedal Steel and Mandolin.

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Dayton Osland
Shobud S10

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 15 May 2002 10:43 am

Dayton, your post sums up a lot of the issues discussed above. I appreciate the time you spent to address these issues. Roy Thomson came up with a possible alternative that uses scale notation (the scale numbers) to represent the notes rather than musical notation or string/fret tablature. It has the potential of being used to communicate the notes indedpendant of tuning and setup. In following up Roy's suggestions, I have started developing a computer program that lists all of the notes across the guitar in either note name or scale number format. I may expand the program to create "scalature" or possible tablature. I am doing this for my own edification but the possibility exists for expanding the program into shareware.

Karlis Abolins

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 15 May 2002 11:11 am

Karlis, take note of Dayton's reference to
the octave identification used for Trumpet
tablature. I think that is key to a possible way to address this issue for steel guitar also. Please keep us posted on progress with
your program development.
Thanks Dayton for the link to Noteworthy Software. I'll check that out.