Looking For Feedback... New Tab Program!

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 20 Aug 2001 5:39 pm

Hi Matthieu,

thanks for that thorough reply!

I may not have made myself clear on some of the issues, as there seem to be some minor misunderstandings.

1. I HAD checked the "Solo Predefined Instrument" box. The MIDI playback was wrong on some notes, nevertheless - and the notation and the TAB were correct. I could email you the *.tef-file.

quote: > 3. There is no way (that I found) to put in additional pedals/levers in the
NOTE/PITCH CHANGE box. There are 10 changes now - there should be more.

I could give to you 15 strings. But why not to redefine an unused string like 'J' if you need it for a special tune?<

I know that "EE", "I" and "J" can be changed. Infact, that´s what I´ve already done. I was talking about MORE than those 10 letters. I am using 4 pedals and 6 knee levers on the E9, and two of the levers RAISE one string, while simulaneously LOWERING another. The way things are now, I would have to use TWO letters for ONE lever. Also: I lower string 6 by 2 semitones on a lever, and raise the same string by 1 semitone on the B-pedal. TablEdit refuses to accept 2 pedals on one string (our socalled "split" pedal). So I have to define yet another change with an extra letter. That way the 10 possibilities are used up fast.

quote:> 7. Right now, a pedal change can only EITHER raise OR lower. For pedals/knees
that do both (e.g. some C6 pedals) I would have to use 2 different
letters/numbers - e.g. if I want to RAISE the first string by +1 and LOWER
the sixth by -2.

Same reply as for 3. The "H", "I" and "J" text strings can be redefined.<

That doesn´t solve the problem that a pedal RAISE one string and LOWERS another. That ONE pedal would have to have TWO names. Not very practical, IMHO.

quote:> 8. Would it be possible to have several user-defined pedal setups (like our
copedent charts), so that the pedal changes were fixed to the corresponding
string, and the program would "know" if it is a RAISE or a LOWER?

Definitively no. TablEdit doesnt need to know that. See reply #2.

When I say TE manages PSG tablatures. I mean it offers the way to print professional looking scores and to get a quite realistic midi playback. That's all and IMHO it is not null...<

Matthieu, calm down.

I didn´t say it was null. It is a GREAT program. I couldn´t even begin to write anything like it. I´m having enough trouble programming smilies!

quote:> See for example the accordion or the dulcimer players. TablEdit allows them to create tablature for their instrument. It's the only program allowing this. They are happy with it and they never asked for a "tutoring" tool.<

A "copedent" is not really a tutoring tool. It rather defines the setup of the steel: which tone changes are possible, and where they are located on the guitar. The "where" is not important in this environment, but what any given pedal or lever does is of utmost importance. The pedals and knee levers are like the fingers of a guitarist´s left hand as he puts them on the fretboard. I have to know how many fingers I have and where they go. (Very often I´ve just got a handful of thumbs.

)

Lastly, I don´t quite understand why you are so adamantly refusing to let the program check if a user´s entry is consistent or not. Such a "watchdog" function would not limit the users possibilities, it would only eliminat blatant mistakes. If I could tab a guitar chord with 6 fingers on 6 strings on 6 different frets, it might be very creative, but only a mutant could play that chord.

I hope I´m not coming on too strong. This program is great already, but maybe we could still imrove on it.

Best regards,
Rainer

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Remington D 10 8/8, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8/8, Session 400 LTD

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 20 Aug 2001 7:58 pm

Rainer,

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that certain players use pedal C to raise strings 5 and 10 ( the Jimmy Day setup ) and he hoped that TablEdit could accomodate those players. I think that TablEdit users should be able to place any letter on any fret. That flexibility is very important.

I have had emails from several players who seem to expect the program to have some sort of "teaching capabilities". As Mattieu said, this is not a tutorial program. It does not correct erroneous entries by the user, it does not generate licks, it does not write tablature for the user. The user must have a certain amount of musical knowledge, he must know his instrument, and it's up to the user to enter the correct data.

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www.dougbsteel.com

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 20 August 2001 at 10:42 PM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 21 Aug 2001 2:29 am

Doug,

I aggree to what you say about the Day-setup. And as you said before, the players most often think of their pedals as C-B-A. And yes, flexibility is very important with such a highly customized instrument as ours. That´s why I thought it would be great if I could customize TablEdit by means of a user-defined copedent preset. I am NOT looking for some teaching capabilities. All I was suggesting was the equivalent of a spell-checker in a word processing program.

Of course the user must know the basics of his instrument and what it can and cannot do. We all are supposed to know how to spell, too. Still: people make mistakes - lack of concentration is probably responsible in most cases. An "auto-edit"- function, or a warning "beep" would wake us up. Or maybe a "check-it"-box to have the program look for inconsistencies after the user has completed the TAB.

You wouldn´t use WORD as teaching tool, just because it can ceck your spelling. It is just a nice little feature. Not essential by any means, but NICE.

You only have to read half a dozen posts on this forum - including mine! - to see how usefull a spell-checker could be.

I´d hate to see what some of our TABs would look like.

Of course you can say that everybody should be allowed to embarrass himself as best he can.

Rainer

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Remington D 10 8/8, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8/8, Session 400 LTD

Matthieu Leschemelle · Post by **Matthieu Leschemelle** » 21 Aug 2001 2:11 pm

Rainer,

First I'd like to state I'm not upsetted at all by your requests.

I've already noticed that my written english may seem harsh to many english readers.

I'm sorry for that. If I could write in french, you would be wondering how subtle I can be

> Lastly, I don´t quite understand why you are so adamantly refusing to let the
> program check if a user´s entry is consistent or not. Such a "watchdog"
> function would not limit the users possibilities, it would only eliminat
> blatant mistakes. If I could tab a guitar chord with 6 fingers on 6 strings
> on 6 different frets, it might be very creative, but only a mutant could play
> that chord.

This is a very good example. Actually TablEdit allows such a six finger chord. But (I don't know why...) I haven't seen any tablature with such fingering

I totally agree with Doug Beaumier.

You seem to have a preconceived idea about what a tablature editor should do.

For instance, with TablEdit you can associate the letter "A" with a full tone raise then one measure later with a three semi-tone lower note. That is your liberty, and your responsability... I think that's a good point.

> I hope I´m not coming on too strong. This program is great already, but maybe
> we could still improve on it.

Sure we can. I've already added five text strings. Now you can define 15 three-character-strings.

I'm also about to adapt the ascii tab export feature in order to have the pitch changes exported.

About the midi playback problem

> I HAD checked the "Solo Predefined Instrument" box. The MIDI playback was
> wrong on some notes, nevertheless - and the notation and the TAB were
> correct. I could email you the *.tef-file.

It would be very useful indeed.

MUSICO · Post by **MUSICO** » 22 Aug 2001 5:51 am

Matthieu

A totally standard C6 Pedal steel setup has a pedal that lowers the 10th string 3 semitones, lowers the 9th string 1 semitone and raises the 7th string 1 semitone.

If I tab out playing those 3 strings together with the pedal down I really need to be able to put the same letter on all three strings.

¿are the rest of the forumites in agreement?

Any other way would be right sound, wrong tab.

Jeremy Williams
Gandia Valencia
Spain

Matthieu Leschemelle · Post by **Matthieu Leschemelle** » 22 Aug 2001 7:47 am

Jeremy, you wrote:

If I tab out playing those 3 strings together with the pedal down I really need to be able to put the same letter on all three strings.

My reply:

TablEdit allows it without any problem. Indeed the labels are completely independant of the pitch changes.

So I really don't see the problem (if any).

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 22 Aug 2001 1:21 pm

Here's what I have noticed, after playing around some.
Say you are at the 3rd fret. You drop string
4[G] to F# with your knee pedal. Now say you want to move the bar to grab the 'A' note on
string 4. In real life, you would move up
4 frets [if counting fret 3 as '#1']. So we
are now at the 6th fret, which is really A#,
but because the lever is still engaged, the note is A.
This change occurred in this TAB I'm working on; but when I numbered in fret 6, it did not come out 'A';
it came out 'A#'. In other words, whatever next note you're going to, you have to disregard the altered note and think of it as still natural. This way, you will get the note you're looking for.

Can you see where this is a little confusing?
CF

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 22 Aug 2001 7:03 pm

Chip, I have not tried your specific example, but the program allows you to assign any letter to any change and to alter the pitch by plus or minus 3 semi-tones. If I understand your example, the knee lever would still be engaged when you moved the bar to fret 6, so that should appear in the tab as 6D (or whatever letter you assign to it). You would then go to the "pitch change" and minus 1 semi-tone. This should produce an A note on fret 6, string 4 with the D lever engaged.

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www.dougbsteel.com

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 22 August 2001 at 08:05 PM.]

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 23 Aug 2001 3:51 am

What I think would be most useful - at least in terms of what I like to see in tab - is to be able to show a grace note tied to a pedal raise (or some other change) in combination. In other words, a simple pedal squeeze - say from 8>8B on string 6.

You can do the grace note without the pitch change to B(+1 tone), but not in combination with the tone raise. I haven't found any other way (e.g., slides, etc.) to do it that I like as much.

To me, the real art of writing tab will be to capture the nuance which is otherwise inferred in most tab programs. If we can't capture a simple pedal squeeze, then we lose a lot, IMNSHO. If there is a better way to do this that I'm missing, I'd love to have some suggestions.

And btw, my own application is just tab writing, not sound file creation, so perhaps I'm approaching this from a more simplistic viewpoint than some of you computer audio guys.[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 23 August 2001 at 04:52 AM.]

SmallCap · Post by **SmallCap** » 23 Aug 2001 4:46 am

I just played a little bit with the program while reading thru' this pos´t ... wow - thats what I've always looked for.

As soon as my PayPal Account is verified (I have to wait for the printed monthly Credit Card Bill) I will get the registered Version. Somehow the normal Credit Card Button doesnt work.

One Question:

I found the Option to print the Chord fingerings between notes and Tab, but where is the Option to put the Chord Names in that place. The examples in the posting use that feature.

2nd Question

You mentioned the a will do something with the spacing. The only thing it does in my version (a3) is the the note turns red. I dont want no red notes (;-), but I seem to be too dumd to turn thenm into black again.

Anyway - Thanks for a great Software.

btw - What's The language You developed this thing in?

Roland Grothe
Hanau, Germany

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I may be old, fat and ugly
but I'm keepin' it country
what's wrong with the way
that we're doin' it now
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jagiella SE-10 3x4 honey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 23 Aug 2001 11:38 am

Steve,

Very small slide lines may be inserted for something like this: 5-5A or for this: 10-11

The small lines will show up on the PRINT PREVIEW, but not on your screen as you are composing the tab.

Try this (be sure that you have set the PEDAL STEEL GUITAR mode first):

1) enter two different numbers next to each other on the same string.
2) highlight the number to the left, click on NOTE, and then SPECIAL EFFECTS, and click on SLIDE and then OK
3) Click on the PRINT PREVIEW up on the toolbar and you will see the small slide line

You can display a GRACE NOTE like this:

1) enter a number in the tab
2) with that number highlighted, click on NOTE, and then GRACE NOTE, and choose the type of effect (slide or hammer-on, etc), and click OK

Small Cap,

To enter CHORD NAMES:

1) click on EDIT on the toolbar
2) click on TEXT MANAGER
3) click on NEW and type in a chord and highlight a Text Position
4) click on INSERT

The red notes will print in black. Click on the Print Preview to check that out.

Vertical SPACING of the lines can be adjusted on the Print Preview screen.

1) click on the print preview on the toolbar
2) click on Print Setup
3) on the "General" tab the spacing may be set. You may also choose to display the tab numbers on the stings (instead of the spaces) if you wish.

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www.dougbsteel.com

Matthieu Leschemelle · Post by **Matthieu Leschemelle** » 23 Aug 2001 1:05 pm

Roland,

> I just played a little bit with the program while reading thru' this pos´t
> ... wow - thats what I've always looked for.

> As soon as my PayPal Account is verified (I have to wait for the printed
> monthly Credit Card Bill) I will get the registered Version. Somehow the
> normal Credit Card Button doesnt work.

You can also register through the german registration page. This offers to you the ability to pay with "Bankeinzug"

> One Question:

> I found the Option to print the Chord fingerings between notes and Tab, but
> where is the Option to put the Chord Names in that place. The examples in the
> posting use that feature.

The examples use simple texts. { Edit | Text Manager } or simply type [T].

> 2nd Question

> You mentioned the a will do something with the spacing. The only thing it
> does in my version (a3) is the the note turns red. I dont want no red notes
> (;-), but I seem to be too dumd to turn thenm into black again.

The red notes are showing so called "duration errors":
- any note whose assigned duration is impossible, e.g. a 1/4 note followed by another note on the same string at an interval of an 1/8th note
- 1/4 notes or greater entered on an off-beat

> btw - What's The language You developed this thing in?

pure C.

Steve:

What I think would be most useful - at least in terms of what I like to see
in tab - is to be able to show a grace note tied to a pedal raise (or some
other change) in combination. In other words, a simple pedal squeeze - say
from 8>8B on string 6.

I've already replied to this request by e-mail and asked for some explanation about what you want. I didn't receive any response.

About the request:

Due to the file format limitation, a pitch change can't be combined with a grace note.

This will be probably over with v3.00. But for now we must live with it.

About what you want:

Now I understand, I could propose to use the Choke effect which has no use for a PSG. It is easy to împlement the following:

If the note is "Choked" and if there is a pitch change and if the tab is a "Pedal Steel Guitar" tablature, then print (e.g.) 8>8B in the tablature, nothing special in notation and play a bend slur back.

BTW, TE would stop to play the bend slur except if the Choke effect is explicitely selected.

I think this is the right solution.

Matthieu Leschemelle · Post by **Matthieu Leschemelle** » 23 Aug 2001 2:03 pm

Steve,

Would you like that: http://www.tabledit.com/images/psgchoke.gif ?

You have just to select a note with pitch change and to apply to it the Choke special effect.

Also the pitch change is played back with a slur effect.

This will be available in v2.60 a4.

Matthieu

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 23 Aug 2001 4:17 pm

Thanks Doug,
Another thing I've noticed is that this
tab I'm working on is a HORNPIPE. It's almost exclusively 1/8 notes. When I have played
back my effort[s] I've noticed that going to a note, like physically moving the bar, as opposed to going there via lever/knee, the note is better cut off and sounds more true to this type of music than using the levers.

But I've tried to employ the pedal/knee changes and have experimented with BEND/RELEASE, CHOKE, SIMPLE BEND, HAMMER-ON, SLIDE, AND COMBINATIONS. But to me, nothing cuts the note off better than just going up or down the neck to where the note is, without pedals or knees.

BUT.....in real life, if you can block well,
than you obviously can do it with knees and levers.
Reflections....

Doug, BTW, how did you go about reproducing "Love Me Tender" tab and putting it on the Forum? I would sure like to know how to do that? Thanks again.
CF

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 23 Aug 2001 6:11 pm

Matthieu,

I like the ( > ) used to indicate the quick pedal action. It takes some getting used to because it's different, but I think it would be a good addition to the PSG program under the "choke".

Chip,

To send the notation (or a section of it) over the internet you need to convert it to
a gif file. If you don't do this, the file will be Huge. To do this I downloaded a free image viewer/editor called IrfanView.

1) click on the Print Preview
2) type in 85%
3) click on EXPORT
4) click on PASTE TO CLIPBOARD AS BITMAP
5) Paste the image to "image viewer" and save it as .gif file which may be sent over the internet. I uploaded mine to my ISP space.

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www.dougbsteel.com

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 23 August 2001 at 07:13 PM.][This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 23 August 2001 at 07:14 PM.][This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 23 August 2001 at 07:16 PM.]

Dayton Osland · Post by **Dayton Osland** » 23 Aug 2001 7:27 pm

Hello,

I am using the demo version 2.60D. When I set up a rhythm of half, eighth, quarter and eighth. I get a "red" note on the quarter. In another measure I have a "dotted" quarter note, two eighths, a quarter and an eighth. This also makes the quarter a "red" note.

Should we really be posting this feedback through the forum? I nearly just e-mailed this directly to the table edit forum directly.

Dayton

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 24 Aug 2001 5:28 am

I like the ( > ) used to indicate the quick pedal action. It takes some getting used to because it's different, but I think it would be a good addition to the PSG program under the "choke".

I've been using the '>' figure to denote quick pedal changes (e.g., squeezes) for a long time. My point, though, in raising this question (above) was to suggest that it helps if this kind of figure is printed out in the final page as a small character
such as what results when you insert a grace note with TablEdit. It's given no (or minimal) time significance and it's shown in smaller point size to distinguish it as an effect. You CAN now do this with TableEdit (e.g., a grace note hooked to a note), but not if that note already has a pitch change associated with it (such as a simple pedal squeeze).

The 'slide' and 'choke' designations for this same effect don't look as good to me as the grace note for this effect.

My $0.02.[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 24 August 2001 at 06:30 AM.]

Matthieu Leschemelle · Post by **Matthieu Leschemelle** » 24 Aug 2001 1:46 pm

Steve:

> The 'slide' and 'choke' designations for this same effect don't look as good
> to me as the grace note for this effect.

I don't understand anymore, you have sent to me a plain ASCII tablature as example. I've modified the program and I send you a much nicer looking tab, the corresponding musical notation, a score you can play back, etc... And now you tell me you want something else that "looks better". Ok. I could perfectly display a choke like a bend grace note but can you assure me you will be definitively satisfied?

Roland:

By registering (Thanks) you have asked how to display slides without the "Sl" text.

With v2.60 a3, the slides are simple lines without any text if the "Pedal Steel Guitar" option is checked.

Dayton:

If you have such questions please e-mail them to me if you don't find the answer in the help file. The red notes are showing the "duration error". I.e. notes with impossible duration or misplacement:
- any note whose assigned duration is impossible, e.g. a 1/4 note followed by another note on the same string at an interval of an 1/8th note
- 1/4 notes or greater entered on an off-beat

You can disable the "duration error" display (Options | Screen) but it is not recommanded since these notes often cause a wrong midi playback.

To All:

I'll upload tomorrow a new v2.60 a4 with the v2.60 complete help file.

Matthieu Leschemelle · Post by **Matthieu Leschemelle** » 24 Aug 2001 3:11 pm

What about this one http://www.tabledit.com/images/psgchoke2.gif ?

It simply prints and play a bend grace note when the choke effect is selected in a PSG tab.

It looks nice with simple notes but somewhat overloaded with chords.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 24 Aug 2001 4:13 pm

Now you're cooking....

Can you make the letters bold like the numbers they're next to?

(I'm a picky SOB aren't I?)[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 24 August 2001 at 05:15 PM.]

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 24 Aug 2001 4:33 pm

Excellent Matthieu! You never cease to amaze me!

I like the lighter grace notes. In my opinion that makes more sense, since grace notes have no time value.

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www.dougbsteel.com

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 24 August 2001 at 06:35 PM.]

Matthieu Leschemelle · Post by **Matthieu Leschemelle** » 25 Aug 2001 1:49 am

Steve:

IMHO, making the letters as bold as numbers would not be very pretty when the label is not a simple letter (e.g. a three-character string).

I think it would be more smart to give you the ability to modify the font used for displaying the labels.

SmallCap · Post by **SmallCap** » 25 Aug 2001 3:54 am

Matthieu,
On the 'secret' page You offer a Mac-Version of the Program. Since I can't try it, but would like to show it to my steel-teacher, (who can't use the Windows Version) I would like to know whether the PSG-Features are already included in the MAC-Version. I understand that the MIDI-Replay won't work, but that's ok - I just like to show him the PSG features

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 25 Aug 2001 4:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Steve:
IMHO, making the letters as bold as numbers would not be very pretty when the label is not a simple letter (e.g. a three-character string). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's fine, Matthieu - It's your baby. I DO like being able to minimize (or negate) the time significance of the grace notes in the tab and music.

(Now, can you tell me how you did that? 'A bend grace note when choke is selected'?)

Thanks for the help.

Steve
[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 25 August 2001 at 05:55 AM.]

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 25 Aug 2001 4:51 am

Matthieu,
You mentioned earlier [pg.2?] about setting up the 'sound' in a better way by employing "SOLO PREDEFINED INSTRUMENT".
I've been looking all thru TE, and haven't come across it yet. So I'm throwing in the towel. Where is this located?
Thanks; and you're doing a fantastic job with the PSG.
Chip