Your opinions on vintage instruments, please

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 19 Oct 2002 4:29 am

As many of you know, I'm writing a book on lap steel guitar. One chapter of the book will highlight a select list of vintage lap steels with photos and brief descriptions that will discuss the merits of each model and attempt to explain why they have consistently remained desireable over many years.

While I beleive comparing guitars is like comparing apples & oranges and it's what you do with what you've got that counts, there are REASONS why people play certain guitars. I'd like to hear some of your opinions on the advantages & disadvantages of various models. By replying, you're giving me permission to use a quote in the book.

Many thanks!

Here's the list:

Rick Frypan
Rick Bakelite models
Gibson EH-150, 185, 275
Gibson Ultratone
Gibson Console Grand
Fender Champ, Custom, Dual Pro, Stringmaster, Deluxe-8, etc.
National Dynamic
Oahu models, acoustic & electric
Weisenborn & Kona
Others that should be on the list?[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 19 October 2002 at 05:31 AM.][This message was edited by Andy Volk on 19 October 2002 at 05:32 AM.]

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 19 Oct 2002 6:37 am

Some others that come to mind are:
Epiphone Electars

National Tricones, and Singlecones

Those early cast metal Nationals, Dobros, Supros {which appear to be made by the same folks)

And what about the amps?

PS: Are you still looing for vintage photos of players and bands with steels? I just dug up a few from my collection.
DD

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 19 Oct 2002 6:48 am

I'm absolutely still looking for shots of instruments and players, Dana. any help is most appreciated.

Electar's are a good suggestion. I'm not including Tricones and other resophoinics because resos are an extensive subject worthy of their own book and frankly, they're my area of least expertise. Also, Bob Brozman's and Stacy Phillip's excellent books pretty much covers the metal body and Dobro arenas. We could still use a good book with extensive interviews with Reso players & builders.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 19 Oct 2002 6:56 am

Andy,

When will the book be on the market and where can I look for it?

Rick

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 19 Oct 2002 7:13 am

The original Gibson Ultratone. The cream and coral one with the coral tuning buttons and the transparent silver backed fingerboard. Coral cover over the headstock and bridge.

IMHO one of the coolest designs ever in steel guitar history. Space age 1950's fat design to the max. The steel guitar voted "most likely to be photographed with". Looks very much at home in the hands of a trendy rock star or a skinny, vacant eyed Guess Jeans model from the Sunday New York Times Magazine.

Functionality... close to zero. The ultra-cool coral bridge cover extends very high up the left side of the fingerboard making right hand placement awkward to near impossible. Just remove the cover you say? Do that and the guitar becomes a plain white plank of wood. It's a no win situation.

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

[URL=http://www.umich.edu/~gbross]Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 19 October 2002 at 08:43 AM.]

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 19 Oct 2002 7:17 am

Besides the National Dynamic, the National New Yorker and the Grand Console models should be discussed. They're both excellent guitars with different sounds.
How about the Magnatone Lyric (doubleneck)? That's a cool instrument, often overlooked by collectors.

------------------
Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 19 Oct 2002 8:10 am

I'm still writing and then the publisher has to put the finished book in queue for editing, design and then printing with all their other projects. My best guess is at least a year or more, Rick.

In addition to chapters on vintage guitars, new steel makers, accessories, resources, etc., there will be interviews I've done with great steel players including: Cindy Cashdollar, Jeremy Wakefield, Lee Jeffreis, Ed Gerhard. Freddie Roulette, Harry Manx, Marion Hall, Rev. Aubrey Ghent, Darrick Campbell, Greg Leisz, Tom Morrell, Judy Jones, Gary Brandin, Bob Brozman, Debashish Battacherya, Steve Howe, Billy Robinson and several more.[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 19 October 2002 at 09:11 AM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 19 Oct 2002 10:27 am

How about the Rick Silver Hawaiian series?I got an 8-string G-Deluxe Silver Hawaiian that I'd put up against any Frypan.BTW,I've got some pix for you - Joaquin, Ralph K. etc.My scanner has been down but I'll get the stuff to you when I get back from Europe first week of Nov. I hope that's not too late. -MJ-

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 19 Oct 2002 10:53 am

Nope, not too late. Gathering photos is a long process of begging, pleading, reminding, e-mailing, etc. It's worth it all when I can gather the kind of shots I'm getting into one book. How are those Joaquin transcriptions coming?

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 19 Oct 2002 3:09 pm

F E N D E R Of Course

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 19 Oct 2002 5:58 pm

Hi Andy,

Congratulations on your book.

I have a 54' Gibson Grande Console (7 and 8 string). The advantages: Nice string spacing that is equal from the nut to the bridge; great color/background on the fret board giving nice visibility to the strings; the heavy body gives it incredible sustain when you need it; the tuning gear is nice and strong (all metal) and geared to give you nice minor adjustments; the pickups (at least mine) are different in that the bottom neck is darker and the upper neck brighter; two tone controls allowing an unusual combination of tone (at least I think that's what they're all about -- please correct me if I'm wrong).

Disadvantages: I don't think the pickups are adjustable, and if you lay your hands too hard on the strings, especially the bass strings, they contact the pickup poles and make an embarrassing (pretty audible) "click." Actually a nice shock treatment to not be lazy on your guitar...so maybe it's an advantage? The only other disadvantage I can think of, is that it's a really heavy son of a gun.

For me, though, really, the bottom line is the "Ford vs. Chevy" thing: I like the name Gibson, I like the looks of Gibson guitars, and I wanted to own the style of guiter Don Helms played with Hank. I've got a Fender Deluxe 8-string, Magnatone Lyric (double neck), Emmons 8-string, Sho-Bud 8-string, and a Ray Meaney's Aloha 6-stringer. I record songs almost daily in my home studio usually with the same instrumentation: acoustic guitar, banjo, accordian, mando, steel, bass and snare. I rotate use of all my steels, and because I like darker tones, to be honest with you, they all sound the same upon playback(!). I can't tell them apart. It's only when you let the pickup breath and open up the dial that their individuality shows up, but (like Jerry Byrd, too, I guess I've read) since I like bassier tones, I might as well just own one guitar...but I just love them all and hope they multiply as the years go by.

Good luck with you book -- can't wait to see it.

Al

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 20 Oct 2002 4:06 pm

Nobody wants to discuss Rick frypans?

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 20 Oct 2002 7:00 pm

Rick FryPans...........would love to have an authentic one but they're too rich for my meager pocket book. I can't afford anything.
I've settled for Don Davis' prior Shot Jackson model of a FryPan. Sounds great and plays good but cost a lot less than the real McCoy. Would be fun to compare them side by side.

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 20 Oct 2002 7:14 pm

Andy: I hear you re the Tricones. I was thinking of it more in terms of comparison to other instruments ie. Weissenborns. For example, why would one choose a Reso over solid wood guitar, etc.
DD

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Oct 2002 7:58 pm

The following is just MY opinion based on observations I have made with my own guitars.

My style and musical preferences are very limited ...

Personally I believe that at least 85% of the "Magic" associated with Rickenbachers is attributed to the Horseshoe Pickup. I will use the following scenario to back-up this statement:

I recently replaced the pickups in my Excel Frypan and my Sierra Laptop 8 with Ricky "Shoes". The results were amazing !!! It turned two excellent and highly regarded steels into ones that are every bit the equivalent of my Rickys ... The Sierra actually becoming the "Top of my Heap".

With that said .... here are my comments about the guitars you mentioned....

'34 Frypan"
The first thing that struck me was how light it was compared to the Excel ... hollow neck and slotted headstock. This guitar has the GREATEST DYNAMIC RANGE of all my steels!!!!.

Pick softly ...quiet notes .....pick hard ... Boomers ... and everything in between.

It has that "Hollow - Scooped" sound I like ...

It has the greatest sustain of the original picked note (meaning the volume of the attack stays at the same level for a greater time period ... before the decay begins).

Its overall sustain is better than my other Rickys BUT not as great as the Excel or Sierra.

This one makes for a wonderful 30's sound.

Disadvantage: Cost ... That dynamic range is real TRICKY .... Sensitive to temperature changes.

'37 Bakelite
Everything you hear is true. It gives off a "Crystal-Like" echo on the attack and when 2 or more notes are played together. It can go from "soft and creamy" ... to "Clear and Sharp" .... to down right "Growl-ly". Just about anything you want can be milked out of this one.

Disadvantages: I'm afraid it will break !!!!

Silver Hawaiians
I have two ... '37 and '39 (easy to date ... stuffed with LA Times). Like mentioned above ... very close to my frypan. A little less sustain and maybe a little harsher sound ... but it is more "Airy" and I like that. I stuffed mine with beach towels to cut down on some of the harshness. My very first steel.

Disadvantages: The extreme "shineyness" combined with the raised frets make it hard to see in bright lights.

'40 Bakelite
Different from the '37 .... neck has metal rod; neck is shaped different(this one runs straight from the body to the head at an angle ... the '37 has a "cutaway" as it leaves the body; tone, volume and jack on audience side; white celluloid plates.

The only sonic difference between the '40 and the '37 is this one is a little brighter and not as "growl-ly". Since they are both string thru the body and have 1 1/2" mags ... I believe the slight variation in tone is due to the neck ... although some say it is a change in the bakelite formula that changed the tone ???

Disadvantages: I'm afraid it will break !!!!

'47 Bakelite ... T- Logo
Although not as highly regarded by many .... I think these are HIGHLY underestimated. Sure they lack some sustain compared to the prewars ... but I find mine a refreshing change. Much more similar to playing an acoustic steel ... with that "Crystal-Like" sound still present.

Disadvantages: I'm afraid it will break !!!!

Well Andy, those are the ones you listed ... I have others ...if you need pictures or more opinions.[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 October 2002 at 10:18 PM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 21 Oct 2002 2:34 am

Thanks, Rick! Very helpful.

Kim West · Post by **Kim West** » 21 Oct 2002 4:37 am

already this is a great thread; i can't wait for the book. will a movie follow? perhaps a documentary with players? best of luck.

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 21 Oct 2002 8:19 am

Andy, add my name with Kim's for the movie list...party at my house everyone...Kim the popcorn's on me....

I was hoping you'd see this post Rick...thanks for enlightening us with your unique perspective and research on Rickenbachers..

...and since everything under the sun has a cable channel now, how about The Steel Guitar Network (TSGN)? Interviews...Documentaries...talk shows...vintage concert footage...western movies staring your favorite steel players...and our prime time award winning, "Cousin Jody's Fantastic Fender Frolic Hour"....

Michael Devito · Post by **Michael Devito** » 21 Oct 2002 2:19 pm

Andy:

I'm a steel neophyte, but here goes anyway. I've got three from the list.

Fender Stingmaster two neck
Pros would be its great, cutting sound, with (I'm guessing here) unbeatable sonic versatility at stage volume. That's how the classic Fender teles and strats impress me; the Stringmaster is just the same. The blender knob is a wonderful touch. This steel is a striking piece of industrial design and construction, right down to the very solid leg attachments. Cons would be the narrow string spacing, also the considerable difference in tone between the necks.

Gibson EH-185
Pros: Perfect, wide string spacing, with strings high over the board. You can really dig in. The sound is just about perfect, with long sustain from the metal through body, plus that wonderful Charlie Christian p/u. At high volumes it sings, with a soaring, very coherent sound even when everything is clipping like hell. The construction is heavy duty. You could use it as a battering ram. The only con I can see is it looks too cool. Somebody might steal it!

Rick Ace Bakelite
This is a minor model, but still bakelite, still horseshoe pickup. Pros would be a very different, powerful sound. The p/u overdrives with great force. At high volumes the individual notes start to interact; this steel pushes tube amps like nothing else I've heard. Cons are that the strings are too low on the board. The Bakelite is fragile; I'd hate to drop it!

I can't wait to read your book. Good luck with it.

TonyL · Post by **TonyL** » 21 Oct 2002 2:58 pm

I'd add something to the Gibson EH-185 points.

I prefer the ES-300 style angled pickup on my EH-185 over the Charlie Christian pickup. It has more warmth and a really "hot" sound. Through a small speaker the thing breaks up just right.

T

Michael Devito · Post by **Michael Devito** » 21 Oct 2002 3:25 pm

Whoops. I don't have a Ricky Ace. It's an Academy. (Thank your Mr. Aiello for the heads up...)

Michael Devito

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 21 Oct 2002 5:17 pm

My dad doesn't know what he was talkin' about .... don't listen to a word he says ... I never did

Graham Griffith · Post by **Graham Griffith** » 22 Oct 2002 12:01 am

Andy,

Don't forget about the Eharp series ... from the original '40s Epiphone "lap" model (as on "Lucky Steels the Wheel") to the '60's console design Deluxe Eharp with its dual pickups & four telescopic legs. With its 3 octave staggered fretboard (termed Octa-Vision Fingerboard)and contoured design it has to be mentioned as part of the history. I have advertising for some of these instruments if you want as well as Eddie Alkire interviews and history.

Graham

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 22 Oct 2002 2:25 am

The E-Harps are nice steels but because there are so many,many different vintage models that I want to concentrate only on a core group of instruments that have stood the test of time in terms of desirability by players. E-Harps seem to be somewhat on the fringe. If I offered you a choice of a free Rick, Gibson, Fender, National or E-Harp, I wouldn't expexct you to choose the E-Harp.

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 22 Oct 2002 10:34 pm

I have probably played 90% of the lap guitars made and for electric I ALWAYS come back to Short Scale Fender Stringmasters...short for slants, Strinmasters for the tone (blend control, basically Humbucking or single coil) and DEPENDABILITY....I have never had a problem with one, either staying in tune, traveling or even dropping one...and I can't stand "LAP" guitars...It's gotta have legs...
Mike