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Topic: Stevenson vs Bullet bar on a Dickerson/Magnatone |
Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 8:02 am |
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I started out playing a Stevenson bar on my Dickerson/Magnatone lap steel. I was comfortable with the Stevenson from playing dobro. I played mostly in the western swing style, but could still do forward and reverse slants with my whole hand. I have a picture of Don Helms using something that looks like a Stevenson bar with precious stones in it. I have to say I can get a great sound out of my cheapo lap, because I can use more weight distribution over all of the strings with the Stevenson bar.
Now I'm converting to the Dunlop "JB" bullet bar (2 3/4" x 3/4"). I want to get the quicker response of using my fingers instead of my whole hand to do slants and split string slants. But I have sadly discovered that the raised palm rest on my Dickerson/Magnatone really gets in the way, starting at the 18th fret. I realize now that my new lap steels that I am making for myself, will have to loose the raised palm rest.
This whole matter has got me wondering about what kind of bar "Sol Ho'opi'i" used on his Dickerson, since it was Sol who got Dickerson to use the raised palm rest. Also, does Don Helms use a Stevenson type of bar because he doesn't slant much and you can distribute greater weight more easily across the bar, without having to invest too much extra time on how to use the Stevenson like you do on a Bullet bar?
I am having a hard time getting my thumb to quickly do reverse slants with the bullet Bar and then recover. Also, its hard to get the same weight distribution to the lower strings with the Bullet. I now have alot more respect for guys who can use both types of bars and do it well. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 8:34 am
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Here's what I have read (no first hand knowledge ... obviously):
Sol Hoopii and Dick McIntire were photographed with Dickersons and recommended them to their students .... but neither used them for recording/performances ... always Rickys.
As far as the slanting ... you can only get the correct angles needed for the more advanced slant positions by using your fingers to slant .... the "whole wrist" technique just won't allow for the seamless phrasin' you are after ... at the speed you need ....
A bullet bar is the easist to manipulate and control for this type of playin' ....
To aid in your "weight distrubution" problem ... pop the little red plastic tab off the back of your Dunlop ... and fill the hollow cavity with lead "split-shot" fishing sinkers ... then cap it off with some 100% silicon (shaping it to a inverted cone for reverse slants) ....
There might be some folks that can do the following run on C6/A7 tunin' with a Stevens/Shubb type bar .... fast and accurately ....
E -- 17..15..13..12..10..8..7..6
C -- 17..16..14..12..10..9..8..7
But I sure can't ...
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My Steel Shoes Site
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 27 January 2003 at 09:48 AM.] |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 10:14 am
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Thanks for the info, Rick. I'll modify the bullets weight, that should help.
I was wondering, is it the back of the thumbs first knuckle that fits into the back of the bullet bar or do you move the tip of the thumb from the side to the end of the bar to slant? Thank you... |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 11:51 am
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It is the "tip" of the thumb ... thats why the 2 3/4" is the preferred length ....
I have a John Pearse and a BJS that are 2 7/8" and they are just too long for this "reach back" technique ... and my hands are pretty big ....
To "reposition" your left hand (ala ... "letting go" to rearrange your grip) ... to accomplish a slant (forward or reverse) ... will seriously compromise that "FLUID" movement ...
The thumb is "in charge" of everything ... it's the first to move in either forward or reverse slants ... it puts the bar into position .... the arched index is your pivot point .... and the remaining fingers (primarily the middle) ... close "the deal" ...
I'm sure lots of folks are successful using a longer bar and various techniques for the reverse slant (and forward for that matter) .... but this is how I learned to do it ...
I know it seems awkard at first ... especially if you are use to another method ... but once your brain is trained ... it is easier to do than forward slants ... speed and accuracy ... Anytime ... Anywhere 
Reverse slants on strings 1&2 and 1&4 make up the majority of the slants in my playin' (C6/A7)....
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My Steel Shoes Site
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 27 January 2003 at 02:11 PM.] |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 1:03 pm
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WHAT RICK SAYS..........is largely true; HOWEVER:
I've been playing for some 59 plus years.
During this time, I've played with not more than a dozen different bars. Because I was so small when I started, my first 3 or 4 bars were stainless steel bolts off of aircraft carrier projects during the war.
I once used some kind of a tapered bar with a chrome plating that wore grooves in itself after many years of playing.
For the last couple of decades I've used a NO-NAME stainless steel bar, measuring 3 3/8 by 3/4 dia. Appears to be hollowed out some but the weight is perfect for my custom strings on my Ricks. The small indention at the butt end is perfect for back-slants.
I also use an Emmons SOLID STEEL bar, measuring 3 1/4 by 3/4 on my EMMONS dbl-10.
It's solid and heavier for the greater number of strings.
Because of my old age I'm now finding it difficult to bend my thumb/fingers due to an apparent arthritic condition that's slowly taking its toll.
THUS, I have to quickly (with control!) flip the butt of the bar up the neck and catch it with my ever-ready thumb. Once I've latched onto it, I seem to have little difficulty from that point in continuing the phrase I'm playing, regardless of how many alternating forward/reverse slants I might encounter.
Just a tho't for you to ponder. IT TAKES TIME to develop this skill/technique. I see so many members here that after a few minutes they mistakenly feel they should be master. Same as those who purchase an expensive pedal steel and give themselve three months to be in a working band.
Doesn't seem to me, that they're being fair to themselves. The difficult I learned takes a little longer; the impossible....sometimes YEARS!
Practice, practice, practice. All of these techniques are within reach of each of you. Just don't give up! |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 2:08 pm
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quote:
I'm sure lots of folks are successful using a longer bar and various techniques for the reverse slant (and forward for that matter) .... but this is how I learned to do it ...
I put in this "disclaimer" because we all know there is more than one way to "Skin a Cat" ... or should that be "Byrd".
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 27 January 2003 at 02:14 PM.] |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 4:23 pm
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| One of my problems with using the bullet bar, may be that I'm trying to bend my index finger like JB does in the pictures. I have long fingers, if I just lay my index finger pretty much flat over the top, slightly more than half way across, I seem to get better control with the back weight issue and can still pivot ok and control the thumb better as well. To bend the index or not to bend the index, that is the question. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 5:03 pm
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Arch that finger .... that way you don't have to reposition (as I said earlier) everytime you go for a slant ...
With an arched index .... you're ALREADY in position to take that thumb and PUSH the back of the bar in for forward slants & you don't have to spend the time (milliseconds) to lift up to move your thumb back for reverse slants ...
It is the accumulation of wasted time (for minute hand position changes) that detracts from the "FLOW" ...
From the videos and such ... JB's DIP (distal interphalangeal joint) seems to be either double jointed or just "locked" from years of use ... it looks like his index finger is straight ... and then takes a 90 degree turn at the DIP to the bar 
Rays right ... this "neuromuscular training" takes along time ... but once its there ... its AUTOMATIC ...
I don't mean to sound "preachy" ... just tryin' to help ....
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My Steel Shoes Site
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 6:24 pm
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Man, I'm here to learn and I appreciate anything you guys can teach me. Would you say the arched index finger is pushing directly down on the very top of the bar or is it alittle off to the opposite side of the index, kinda pinching the bar between the index and middle?
You know, there isn't anybody teaching non-pedal steel around here in the San Diego county area. I have learned alot of stuff on the forum and I think I can say for alot of us new steel players, "Thanks to all you more experienced steel players for helping us new guys"!  |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 7:36 pm
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I have to differ on the arched index finger. I rather imagine that JB's arch is more due to a little arthritis than a desire use it that way. Placing the index finger straight on the bar is IMO better than arching it. I feel it has better control. I agree totally with most of the rest especially with the thumb.
And by all means, NEVER slant the wrist when slanting. Use the fingers. This is one of JB's most voiciferous "NO-NO's. I have to agree. No other method will work when slanting the bar as smoothly; as just using the fingers and the thumb quickly moving to the indentation at the rear of the bar for reverse slants particularly and back when straightening it back out again.
Accurate bar control is essential. And watching masters like JB and BE would be the best teachers one could ever have in the best way to do it. They both have it mastered beyond the proverbial "nth degree".
Incidently, many of the original "Hawaiian" players used flat bars. Some with a perfectly flat bottom (thinwise); others with a slightly rounded bottom. These bars were responsible in some cases for unique and characteristic sounds and tone, often NOT possible with a round bar.
God bless them and all of you,
carl |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 8:39 pm
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Carl, do you let your index finger and middle finger kinda pinch the bar between the two fingers? Sorry if I'm asking alot of questions, I just want to come to a final understanding on how to practice this way of using a bullet bar, so I can repeat it at least two thousand times like you do in martial arts when your trying to get something to become a reflex.
Rick, I still would like to hear your opinion please on pinching the bar a little or not at all, for an over all control during slants. I can kinda pinch it with my index finger flat and also arched. This seems to help, but I don't know if I'm starting a bad habit that I should stop? Thank you... |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 8:51 pm
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Carl, JB has always stressed the arched index ... its one of the main features of his basic slant teaching ...videos, etc. ...
As far as the exact downward point for the index .... whatever you feel is best is best ...
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2003 8:57 pm
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Jesse,
My right index finger, the middle finger and my thumb form a "cave" so to speak that surrounds the bar solidly; like a too large truck got stuck in a tunnel. Index finger dead on top of this cave. With the thumb and middle finger equadistant on each side.
This leaves the ring finger and the little finger to lay on the strings solidly dampening (as long as I desire) the strings beyond the bar.
The middle finger and the thumb aid the index finger in keeping the correct downward pressure on the strings. But it is the index finger that is mostly in control here. The thumb and middle finger are primarily used for positioning (steering) the bar as the bar pivots under the index finger for slants both forward and reverse, then returning to a straight position.
Once learned, one should be able to pick the bar up off the strings and not have the bar fall out if their hand, yet keeping the bar held just the same as it is while ON the strings.
Controlling the bar does NOT come easy in one's learning curve. But the interesting thing is; when it does come, the bar apears to be soooooo easy to manipulate. If you study most of the really great masters like JB and BE, they have this same control. There is a "relaxed" look AND feel to it, once one gets it. When that comes, you know instantly you have it.
As long as you are thinking about it and/or "trying" to get it right, you are still in the learning phase.
hope this helps,
carl
PS. Rick, IF JB says to arch the index finger, I stand corrected. There is NO way on this earth I would ever knowlingly buck the greatest lap steeler Player who has ever lived.
And....
"That includes those yet unborn!"
[This message was edited by C Dixon on 27 January 2003 at 09:04 PM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 28 Jan 2003 8:28 am
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| Thanks guys, I'll put all this great advise to use now. I think I'll apply this to John Tipka's "Aloha Oe", found on Brads page of steel and keep doing it till I can do it in my sleep. Ya'll are the best teachers any student could luck into for lessons. Stay cool... |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2003 10:32 pm
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As to Prof. Rick's mention of Jerry's DIPed finger, it's definatly, seriously and permanently been reformed to it's now normal playing position, which includes 'the arch'. A close examination of Jerry's hands are a real kick for someone into steel. Stubby fingers that can still do SO much.
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 29 Jan 2003 8:07 am
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| Thats good to know Ron. Since I have long fingers and thumbs, I know I'll have to modify my grip a little. I have been using my thumb to cover the bass strings of certain chords I play on guitar for a long time. If I try and copy JB's pictures exactly, my thumb is way up the side of the bar and makes reverse slants kinda hard. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2003 8:16 am
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I asked my wife if she could "dislocate" my index at the DIP and "fuse" it in that position....
She replied
quote:
Yes ... but how would you pick your nose ???
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