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Topic: Show Pro A pedal issue |
William Seeders Mosheim
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2025 5:07 pm |
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I've always had an issue with my A pedal on my Show Pro and I've tried almost everything to remedy it with no luck. I'm sure there's a term for this but I don't know what it might be called so I apologize if this has been discussed in the past.
When using my A pedal if I don't return it completely back to neutral and I press it down again, it always lands sharp of the C# it's tuned to land on. This generally only happens on my 5th string and it's so extreme that it's dangerous to accidentally do in a live setting. It's quite frustrating to work around with certain moves and tunes. To summarize in a different way if I do a quick little half pedal move with the A pedal when I bottom it out it's sharp if I've already been bottomed out before. It only hits perfectly in tune going from a neutral position. Going anything less seems to load the string and pull it even farther the second time.
Is there an easy fix for this or something to look for? Is this just inherent in some all pull guitars? My '83 LeGrande doesn't have this issue and none of my other non all pull guitars have any issue like this.
I've tried almost everything and I'm stumped as to what's causing it. |
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Ronald Sikes
From:
Corsicana, Tx
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Posted 10 Feb 2025 5:55 pm
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William , I’d give Jeff a call in the morning and he can talk you through it and probably assess the situation real quick. He knows the guitar better than anyone. Great guy.
Best of luck, Ron
_________________
Show Pro #26 & #83,BJS bars,Stereo Steel,Tommy Huff cabs loaded with JBL D130's, Wampler pedals,NV112,NV400, Steelers Choice Seats |
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William Seeders Mosheim
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2025 5:58 pm
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| Thanks, Ron. I should give Jeff a call or shoot him an email. He's always very helpful. Just thought someone may have an easy answer here before I took up his time. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2025 7:48 pm
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So, to summarize again, when going from neutral to all the way down with the A-pedal, the pitch lands correctly in tune at C#.
But if you half-pedal and pause, if you then go all the way to the floor, it overshoots the target note and is a little sharp. Is that right?
Here's my theory and it could be bogus, but here goes:
There are two 'versions' of raises you're doing: a full one, and a half-to-full one.
It's possible that when you do the full raise (neutral to all the way down), the lower-finger may be slightly activating when it should not be moving. Not realizing this is happening, you have "tuned around this situation" and tuned the nylon nut to still hit C# with this condition in play. And as long as this condition is in play, you hit the target note as expected.
But when you half-pedal, it's easing into the change -- and the lower-finger isn't getting involved, isn't getting "pulled along" with the raise finger. That would be great and normal if not for the fact that the change was originally tuned with the "condition in play." But now it's not happening since you eased into it. So, the pitch overshoots the target since there is no slight 'lowering factor' that's being netted against the raise to land on a pitch. It's now just a pure raise, as it should be.
You can test this theory by flipping the guitar over and working the A-pedal. The return spring attached to the 5th string should not be stretched when doing a raise. If the spring is being slightly pulled when you do a full raise, that's the problem. A slight lowering action is being introduced, and that is counteracting the raise a little bit. This leads to inconsistent tuning when using the pedal, or it can disallow you to get all the way up to the target note.
There are two ways to keep the lower-finger from being activated when doing a raise: the rivet in the middle of the changer holding the raise-finger to the lower-finger might need one drop of lubrication. Or... the lower-return spring needs to be slightly tightened (just enough to keep that lower-finger in place when doing a raise, and no more. Too much tension creates a different problem).
If that's not the problem, I got nuthin'. |
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William Seeders Mosheim
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2025 4:56 am
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Tucker!! I think you may have nailed it. I've struggled with the tuning stability of this guitar since day one when it was brand new and always felt something was a little off. I played it hard and broke it in and adjusted most of the quirks (I thought) out but some have always haunted me. I think my changer is all sorts of sticky and not working correctly because almost every raise and lower also moves the opposing raise and lower. I have a feeling this is exactly what may be causing the issue and it seems to be more pervasive than I realized throughout the entire changer. The 5th string must just be the worst offender I couldn't tune around.
My only other all-pull guitar is the '83 LeGrande I mentioned and I never thought to really compare the changers to see what's happening and what may be different. I just did and it's wildly different and more stable. This is exactly the info I needed to remedy the situation. I'll report back with the results of lubricating and adjusting the changer.
THANK YOU!! |
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William Seeders Mosheim
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2025 6:55 am
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Wow! I can't believe I didn't notice this before and realize what was happening. Still learning the finer points of steel adjustment and setup though so this is exciting to dig into.
I've already made great progress freeing up the raises and lowers and isolating them from each other. I may have to tear it down a little bit to really get in deep but this is very exciting and exactly what I was hoping to find. I have no doubts now that this will remedy this issue and probably most others I've had as well.
Very exciting! |
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William Seeders Mosheim
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2025 1:44 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
So, to summarize again, when going from neutral to all the way down with the A-pedal, the pitch lands correctly in tune at C#.
But if you half-pedal and pause, if you then go all the way to the floor, it overshoots the target note and is a little sharp. Is that right?
Here's my theory and it could be bogus, but here goes:
There are two 'versions' of raises you're doing: a full one, and a half-to-full one.
It's possible that when you do the full raise (neutral to all the way down), the lower-finger may be slightly activating when it should not be moving. Not realizing this is happening, you have "tuned around this situation" and tuned the nylon nut to still hit C# with this condition in play. And as long as this condition is in play, you hit the target note as expected.
But when you half-pedal, it's easing into the change -- and the lower-finger isn't getting involved, isn't getting "pulled along" with the raise finger. That would be great and normal if not for the fact that the change was originally tuned with the "condition in play." But now it's not happening since you eased into it. So, the pitch overshoots the target since there is no slight 'lowering factor' that's being netted against the raise to land on a pitch. It's now just a pure raise, as it should be.
You can test this theory by flipping the guitar over and working the A-pedal. The return spring attached to the 5th string should not be stretched when doing a raise. If the spring is being slightly pulled when you do a full raise, that's the problem. A slight lowering action is being introduced, and that is counteracting the raise a little bit. This leads to inconsistent tuning when using the pedal, or it can disallow you to get all the way up to the target note.
There are two ways to keep the lower-finger from being activated when doing a raise: the rivet in the middle of the changer holding the raise-finger to the lower-finger might need one drop of lubrication. Or... the lower-return spring needs to be slightly tightened (just enough to keep that lower-finger in place when doing a raise, and no more. Too much tension creates a different problem).
If that's not the problem, I got nuthin'. |
You absolutely saved the day, Tucker! I got it all working correctly and tuned up. It's a whole new instrument! Everything I ever hoped it would be but never was before. Night and day difference! |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2025 8:08 pm
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| Good news. So, it was basically an underlubricated changer? |
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William Seeders Mosheim
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2025 9:40 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
| Good news. So, it was basically an underlubricated changer? |
I would say that was exactly the case. Feel lucky it was so simple but also kind of dumb for not realizing it sooner as I should know better. For some reason I was told to not lubricate inside the changer and had read that on here a few places as well and just trusted it. As a machinist who knows the importance of lubricating any moving metal on metal part this always seemed counterintuitive. Jeff never mentioned it as it being a possible issue when I was initially having issues with this steel but I didn't bug him too much as I'd never had a brand new steel and figured it would break in eventually. Once lubricated this really didn't seem to make any sense and I'm not sure why I didn't do so or question what I'd been told. I've been lubricating everything else quite frequently.
Proper lubrication is the key to life! It really is a new instrument now. Can't wait to really put it through the paces! |
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Ronald Sikes
From:
Corsicana, Tx
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Posted 12 Feb 2025 7:09 am
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William, glad you were able to get it figured out. That was some really good and very detailed information Tucker gave you. That’s why I love this forum. Information and everyone helping each other. I just retired in December where I was GM at a small fabrication and machine shop. I also built the first aluminum body , E.T.S. ,for Larry Agan(RIP) who built steel guitars alongside Bud Carter.
Ron
_________________
Show Pro #26 & #83,BJS bars,Stereo Steel,Tommy Huff cabs loaded with JBL D130's, Wampler pedals,NV112,NV400, Steelers Choice Seats |
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William Seeders Mosheim
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2025 9:05 am
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| Ronald Sikes wrote: |
William, glad you were able to get it figured out. That was some really good and very detailed information Tucker gave you. That’s why I love this forum. Information and everyone helping each other. I just retired in December where I was GM at a small fabrication and machine shop. I also built the first aluminum body , E.T.S. ,for Larry Agan(RIP) who built steel guitars alongside Bud Carter.
Ron |
Agreed! It's been such a hugely valuable resource for me ever since I fell deep into pedal steel late 2019. I build high end open back banjos (and some guitars) for my living outside of performing. So I have the skills but the intricacies of pedal steel repair and maintenance I'm still learning and exploring. I'd be nowhere near where I am without the folks here.
Congrats on your retirement! I hope you get to work on all sorts of fun personal projects now. |
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