I have been experimenting with this tuning quite a bit, and I think it is appropriate to call it Carnatic tuning since it is what many of the South Indian Carnatic musicians use on their instruments.
E B E B E B, high to low. 2 1/2 octaves.
Back in the ‘80s I had a chance to hang for a day with L. Shankar and learned this was how he tuned both necks of his doubleneck violin, though each with 5 strings. But he could cover the entire orchestral range. Recently, I attended a concert that influenced me to delve deeper when I noticed the guitarist Prasanna tuning his guitar the same way. I don’t know how this will influence my direction in the future, but at the moment I am enthralled.
I wanted to record something quick to demonstrate it, and this is the first piece of music that came to mind. I want to thank Nick Fryer for making me this awesome pickup, which honestly catapulted this guitar into regular use now.
https://youtu.be/0nZoZ1-7QbA?si=VZ3fHmtgW8TH7riR
Heavily modded Rogue audio demo using Carnatic tuning
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
-
Nic Neufeld
- Posts: 1319
- Joined: 25 Sep 2017 8:10 am
- Location: Kansas City, Missouri
That's an interesting guitar for sure! And while that wasn't the piece of music I was expecting to hear...I love it and you did well getting the whole weather report sound.
Those saddles are interesting, I guess the forward set screws let you adjust the jawari ("buzziness" based on string angle). I always favored a more "closed" (less buzzy) jawari at least for main strings. Part of that was the gharana I studied in...vs Ravi Shankar who was known for a really open sounding jawari moreso, lots of buzz and sizzle. (That said, actual Carnatic music is as foreign to me as anything!)
Indian tunings tend to not be very diverse...usually what you will see on main playing strings is root, fifth, and maybe 4th, on sarod/sitar. Like the 1-5-1-5-1-5 in your version. Because unlike a lot of western instruments (guitar and steel in particular), the emphasis is usually playing up and down a string, vs across multiple strings on the fretboard in one position, as on guitar. With gandhar pancham sitar style you really spend 90% of the time on a single main playing string, and most movement is up and down (which is one reason ornamentation, slides/meend etc is so advanced and important in indian music). But since you're doing western music with it anyway, gives you some easy advantages for things like fat sounding octaves. I noted that with Megan Lovell's playing, her open G tuning means no matter what she's playing she's got an octave she can double with two strings over, and she uses it a lot on solos.
Is this Rogue still with the factory 20" or so scale? I had a Morrell like that, never bonded much with it...
Those saddles are interesting, I guess the forward set screws let you adjust the jawari ("buzziness" based on string angle). I always favored a more "closed" (less buzzy) jawari at least for main strings. Part of that was the gharana I studied in...vs Ravi Shankar who was known for a really open sounding jawari moreso, lots of buzz and sizzle. (That said, actual Carnatic music is as foreign to me as anything!)
Indian tunings tend to not be very diverse...usually what you will see on main playing strings is root, fifth, and maybe 4th, on sarod/sitar. Like the 1-5-1-5-1-5 in your version. Because unlike a lot of western instruments (guitar and steel in particular), the emphasis is usually playing up and down a string, vs across multiple strings on the fretboard in one position, as on guitar. With gandhar pancham sitar style you really spend 90% of the time on a single main playing string, and most movement is up and down (which is one reason ornamentation, slides/meend etc is so advanced and important in indian music). But since you're doing western music with it anyway, gives you some easy advantages for things like fat sounding octaves. I noted that with Megan Lovell's playing, her open G tuning means no matter what she's playing she's got an octave she can double with two strings over, and she uses it a lot on solos.
Is this Rogue still with the factory 20" or so scale? I had a Morrell like that, never bonded much with it...
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me
It’s a 21” scale, at least with the set up I am using. That’s perfect for me because I only play single notes or an occasional dyad and don’t do any slanting. It also makes it a little easier to get around, as I am starting to explore gamakas and the approach to melody. I am very interested in the music itself, but for my own purposes I am interested in the sound and the technique less than the whole system. I just don’t have enough time left or interest enough to give up what I have done my whole life. I’m a slave to the Western Music system. 
But I really have always loved listening to music of the east, from Qawwali to Turkish to Malian music, which all have a similar quality to them for someone with western ears like me. I appreciate it purely on a musical level.
I used to have it much buzzier, with threads under the strings, but now I like it less buzzy. The bridge adds a nice presence to the notes that gives them the intensity I am looking for.
But I really have always loved listening to music of the east, from Qawwali to Turkish to Malian music, which all have a similar quality to them for someone with western ears like me. I appreciate it purely on a musical level.
I used to have it much buzzier, with threads under the strings, but now I like it less buzzy. The bridge adds a nice presence to the notes that gives them the intensity I am looking for.
-
Nic Neufeld
- Posts: 1319
- Joined: 25 Sep 2017 8:10 am
- Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Yeah, that's kind of why I enforced a strict "happy to not understand it" policy with Carnatic music myself because there's just so much to learn from even a single school of northern indian music!
I think you get a sense of -perceived- sustain with more buzz (open jawari) but you get more actual sustain with less buzz and a closed jawari. It's a matter of taste...I like a buzzier sound for sympathetic strings, where the sizzle of an activated sympathetic is just lovely.
Sometimes its wild to hear a player like Vilayat Khan or Shahid Parvez Khan strike a note and just pull the string on the fret (not even necessarily doing hammer-ons or pull offs) but letting a whole melodic line of distinct notes play from that one string strike...you definitely need the sustain (and close miking!).
One thing I've noticed though, most of the Indian steel guitars, they don't have a jawari bridge (at least for the barred strings). I have a mohan veena...only the sympathetic strings have the jawari bridge. My guess is this is to maximize sustain and volume. But the really ancient ones...eg vichitra veena...do have jawari bridges. But those are odd instruments all around, and very very rare these days.
For years I've thought about building a true electric/solidbody instrument, like a doubleneck, set up with a playing neck with main/drone/chikari strings, and a second adjoined neck with sympathetic strings...the cool thing about that is you could blend the two necks to get your preferred amount of resonance from the sympathetics (something you can only attain with an acoustic instrument with the most artful adjustment of setup and sanding the jawari bridge).
Anyway, it sounds great and really evokes the original (tricks my brain into thinking I'm hearing a sax at times!)
I think you get a sense of -perceived- sustain with more buzz (open jawari) but you get more actual sustain with less buzz and a closed jawari. It's a matter of taste...I like a buzzier sound for sympathetic strings, where the sizzle of an activated sympathetic is just lovely.
Sometimes its wild to hear a player like Vilayat Khan or Shahid Parvez Khan strike a note and just pull the string on the fret (not even necessarily doing hammer-ons or pull offs) but letting a whole melodic line of distinct notes play from that one string strike...you definitely need the sustain (and close miking!).
One thing I've noticed though, most of the Indian steel guitars, they don't have a jawari bridge (at least for the barred strings). I have a mohan veena...only the sympathetic strings have the jawari bridge. My guess is this is to maximize sustain and volume. But the really ancient ones...eg vichitra veena...do have jawari bridges. But those are odd instruments all around, and very very rare these days.
For years I've thought about building a true electric/solidbody instrument, like a doubleneck, set up with a playing neck with main/drone/chikari strings, and a second adjoined neck with sympathetic strings...the cool thing about that is you could blend the two necks to get your preferred amount of resonance from the sympathetics (something you can only attain with an acoustic instrument with the most artful adjustment of setup and sanding the jawari bridge).
Anyway, it sounds great and really evokes the original (tricks my brain into thinking I'm hearing a sax at times!)
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me
-
Ethan Shaw
- Posts: 531
- Joined: 24 Jun 2008 4:28 pm
- Location: Texas, USA
-
Tony Oresteen
- Posts: 529
- Joined: 8 May 2017 7:54 pm
- Location: Georgia, USA
Mike,
I really liked it. I grew up in Lahore, Pakistan and my first instrument was sitar so I also love eastern music & 1/4 tones.
The Rogue is not a short scale - it is a VERY short scale at 21.0"
. I have 3 of them. Lots of fun. I understand the brass modded bridge saddles but why the modded pickup? The 6 string stock pickup is designed to cover E2 to E4 (E5 at the 12th fret of the 1st string) which is 4 + octaves so it should handle the 2.5 + octaves that you tune to.
My Rogues have DiMarzio Area 58 noiseless single coils in them which sound much better (to my old ears) than the stock pickups but are still designed to cover 3 octaves +.
Post more please!
I really liked it. I grew up in Lahore, Pakistan and my first instrument was sitar so I also love eastern music & 1/4 tones.
The Rogue is not a short scale - it is a VERY short scale at 21.0"
. I have 3 of them. Lots of fun. I understand the brass modded bridge saddles but why the modded pickup? The 6 string stock pickup is designed to cover E2 to E4 (E5 at the 12th fret of the 1st string) which is 4 + octaves so it should handle the 2.5 + octaves that you tune to.My Rogues have DiMarzio Area 58 noiseless single coils in them which sound much better (to my old ears) than the stock pickups but are still designed to cover 3 octaves +.
Post more please!
Tony
Newnan, GA
Too many guitars, not enough time to play
'72 Sho-Bud 6139 '71 Sho-Bud 6140
'82 Sho-Bud 6160 '73 Sho-Bud 6138
'71 Marlen 210
'78 Fender Stringmaster T8 black '70??? Fender Champ Lap Steel
Newnan, GA
Too many guitars, not enough time to play
'72 Sho-Bud 6139 '71 Sho-Bud 6140
'82 Sho-Bud 6160 '73 Sho-Bud 6138
'71 Marlen 210
'78 Fender Stringmaster T8 black '70??? Fender Champ Lap Steel
Tony, the stock pickup sounded terrible to me. And not to mention it sat almost half an inch below the strings at its highest position. Nick was able to wind a pickup that emphasized low mids, exactly what I was looking for; unfortunately, I can't seem to find the specs at the moment.Tony Oresteen wrote:I understand the brass modded bridge saddles but why the modded pickup? The 6 string stock pickup is designed to cover E2 to E4 (E5 at the 12th fret of the 1st string) which is 4 + octaves so it should handle the 2.5 + octaves that you tune to.
Very cool, Mike. Your musical curiosity often gets spectacular results.
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com