C6th - getting that middle 'D'?

[Roger Rettig]

I want to get the D note between the 6th and 7th strings. At present, I'm raising the C a tone (on MKV).

Is there a benefit to lowering the 6th (E to D) rather than raising the 7th (C to D) as I'm now doing?

Thanks for your thoughtx.

[Brett Lanier]

If your steel can do it, try tuning the 6th pedal lower to drop a whole step and just play around with it. I don't have that D note option but I was doing this just the other day. It's a cool change!

[Ian Rae]

Don't expect to have all the notes of the scale available at one fret like they are on E9 - C6 isn't like that.

I'm going to talk about the C pedal - why I'm doing that will become apparent. Whatever use people put it to nowadays, it started life as a way of appearing to lower string 6 in the pull-release days when it couldn't be lowered directly; it already had the B pedal raise on it and you couldn't do both on the same string. If you slid back two frets while engaging it, it sounded like the G#s were lowering to F#. I suspect that this is now a lost art, as most people now lower 6 to F# on a lever.

Now consider Pedal 7 - it does the same. If you slide back two frets while engaging it, G goes down to F and E goes down to D, while C and A stay the same. The difference is that it's not a lost art if you work on it

[scott murray]

I've got both Roger, and both come in handy at different times. but if I had to choose just one, I'd keep the raise on string 7

[Roger Rettig]

Ian

I don't ask these questions without some thought. That gap is one that I think could be usefully bridged.

As for the C pedal saga, the instrument has moved on. (Of all the standard changes, the C pedal is lowest on my list of essentials.)

It seems that Buddy Emmons thought it beneficial: he had an extra D string on his 12-string C6th Sierra and, I would think, on his JCH that had a 12-string back neck.

I bet you wouldn't have lectured him about 'lost arts'.

Scott: I raise both 3 & 7 at present but intend to lose the 3rd string raise to D.

Is it better to raise 7 or lower 6 (or does one have an advantage over the other?)

[Bill McCloskey]

Pedal "9" on the Paul Franklin copedent lowers the E to D and raises the C to C#. So you get a nice C C# D E run by just engaging and releasing pedal 9.

[Roger Rettig]

You're right, Bill: Paul has that change. Could it be that I'm in good company?

I did have an excellent suggestion via PM: manage without the low C string at 10. That idea appeals to me. I rarely play that string, whereas the 9th (F) is vital for so much.

I'm tempted to try adding a D string between 7 & 6.

[Ian Rae]

The low C is the most dispensible of the standard strings. But adding extra strings messes up the grips. To me the C6 is all about intuition and not thinking too hard about the individual notes. A D string might be useful now and then, but you'd spend most of your time dodging it, or so it seems to me

[John Swain]

Roger, I copied Doug Jernigan and lower 6th E-D, also added string 1 to Eb on my vertical. It doesn't work for quick scales but with P6 it lowers the b7 to 6. Also the 1st string raise can be added to 3rd string raise for scale tones. The 6str lower adds a "middle" root with P5.

[Roger Rettig]

Upon reflection, I think Ian's point is well taken; while it makes a lot of sense to lose the 10th (C) string, it would play havoc with my grips.

I'm already under siege, playing my double-ten Emmons AND my new D13th Williams. While I can reasonably easily switch between guitars, now is not the time to change the geography of C6.

John - I just checked; I have no more 'lower' spaces on the 6th so my original post is moot. (I can't figure out why both my 'lowers' are occupied - I only lower the 6th one time; on pedal 6!!! What's the other tuning hex doing there?)

Many thanks for all responses to my 'thinking out loud', both here and with PMs.

[Tony Dingus]

Roger I've raised the C to D and the A to C on my 4th pedal for a little while and I think I'm going to put that change back on. Paul Franklin had that change which also raised the F to A on a pedal a few years ago. I'm not sure if this is what you're wanting to do.

Tony

[Richard Sinkler]

John - I just checked; I have no more 'lower' spaces on the 6th so my original post is moot. (I can't figure out why both my 'lowers' are occupied - I only lower the 6th one time; on pedal 6!!! What's the other tuning hex doing there?)

Where does the second rod hook to? Could it possibly be a compensator rod?

Having a readily available D note down there would be great. Those that have the first tuned to D have it available in the upper part. I think I would prefer lowering string 6 to D. If doing a scale run starting on string 7, I imagine a nicer sound of the 6th string sliding up into the E note. As I mostly play it now with my bar moved down 2 frets on string 6 and moving it back up, this would be more familar to me. But, I'm sure I move my bar up 2 frets on string 7 at times. I wouldn't want a permanent D string in between strings 6 and 7.

[Roger Rettig]

Richard:

Thanks.

It may connect to that 'stop bar' near the changer. I still can't understand what purpose that serves but my LeGrande 111 has SIX bell-cranks on that static cross-shaft.
???
I will flip the guitar sometime this week but I've been busy with the Williams, getting how I want it.

I suppose I would prefer to lower 6; I wonder if that 'tie-rod' that's occupying my 6th-lower could be moved to an adjacent slot?

[Richard Sinkler]

A Legrand 3 has the anti-detune mechanism. My guess is that it is part of that. Hopefully someone can answer your question about moving that rod. Maybe try to reach out to Jack Strayhorn.

[J D Sauser]

I want to get the D note between the 6th and 7th strings. At present, I'm raising the C a tone (on MKV).

Is there a benefit to lowering the 6th (E to D) rather than raising the 7th (C to D) as I'm now doing?

Thanks for your thoughtx.

Lower E a whole step. PF does it, and if I am not mistaken Doug Jernigan does or did, and probably many others.

If you have a C-to-C# raise... hit that with the P5 and the E-to-D drop and get lost in Upper-Structures-Land. It's fun.
After that, you will want to add a G-string whole lower too.

... J-D.

[Roger Rettig]

JD:

See my later post: I now discover that both my 'lower' options on the E string are occupied.

One rod is attached to a stop-bar. I would like to know if it can be moved to another changer-hole.

[J D Sauser]

JD:

See my later post: I now discover that both my 'lower' options on the E string are occupied.

One rod is attached to a stop-bar. I would like to know if it can be moved to another changer-hole.

You only have 2 lower slots on your changer?
What besides the P6 E-to-Eb do you have on it (or are we talking Universal E9th/B6th?)

I see suggestions of a low D instead of the last C. Maurice had that and I went that route too. It's however a CHORD thing... it creates the root to the Relative minor of the 9th string rooted F.Major (Dm11th).
Having a D in the lower middle is a single note gap bridge between the C and E a major third above. Essentially it splits that 4 fret interval into 2 fret intervals. Which comes in handy in fast single note Jazz soloing which is often tight nit to the point a prevalence of extended chromatic runs.

C6th is evidently a CHORD tuning... with 4 full chords across most strings: C.M6th and it's relative minor Am7th and F.Maj9th with it's relative minor Dm9th (the later most don't "see" because the lack of a low D root in most setups).

RAISING the 7th string C a whole to D, fills the gap for single note soloing, but IF you have a C-half-step raise which you could combine with P5 (A.M6th open) you would want to be able to add the E-whole-step lower for chordal considerations.

Another thing I would consider is that, unlike Country, much of the Jazz idiom is filled with down-moves. To Bebop it's a lifeline of the language. I thus find "drops" to fit the language better.

... J-D

[Roger Rettig]

Yes: Emmons LeGrande 111 - three 'raises', two 'lowers'.

I don't begin to understand what function that 'stop bar' fulfills. I know it's static and has six bell-cranks (three per neck) with rods occupying changer-holes.

My new SD12 is 4-up, 3-down, but the Williams changer is very modern.

[J D Sauser]

Yes: Emmons LeGrande 111 - three 'raises', two 'lowers'.

I don't begin to understand what function that 'stop bar' fulfills. I know it's static and has six bell-cranks (three per neck) with rods occupying changer-holes.

My new SD12 is 4-up, 3-down, but the Williams changer is very modern.

I am not familiar with Emmons All Pulls.

I would not be surprised that like Carter and Zum, they put a max raise or lower rest at the changer to emulate the PushPull idea of having changes rest agains the changer plate/end-plate to preserve tone... I don't know.

So, what is your other lower on that string?

... J-D.

[Roger Rettig]

Standard P6 - lowers E to Eb (and raises 2 E to F).

[Rhino]

Hi Roger ...
I own a Legrande3 with lower compensators. These pulls were indicated with a black tuning nut and rubber washer, and taking up a lower changer slot. The compensation rods connected to a stationary cross shaft. This design allowed a hex nut adjustment to slightly flatten the string after a lower in order to bring it in tune, rather than relaxing the string sharp.
If your extra six string lower tuning nut isn't black, then follow that pull and see if it goes to the stationary cross rod.
I believe this is a compensator and is what is taking up that extra lower changer slot.

Rob ...

[Roger Rettig]

Thanks, Rob.

That sounds logical.

I do wonder if it can be relocated, though, into an adjacent 'spare' lower-hole.

I wouldn't dream of trying it without expert advice.

I just looked: on C6th, there are three hex-nuts with black paint (or the remains of it after 23 years). They're on the 10th, 6th and the 3rd.
On E9, I can't see any black paint but I know that there are three bell-cranks on that static shaft.

I appreciate the input!

[Rhino]

Hi Roger ...
I took receipt of my L3 September of 2000, possibly shortly after yours was shipped.

I don't have a compensator pull on C6, 6th string lower, because that E to D# didn't need one.

No -- you cannot move the compensator pull to a different lower slot, but you can remove it freeing up that slot.

Later ...
Rob ...

[Roger Rettig]

Thanks, Rob!

I believe I got mine shipped to me at Mill Mountain Theatre, Roanoke in October 2000. The serial # is 2085L. What's yours?

I will look into that and report on the results.

[J D Sauser]

Standard P6 - lowers E to Eb (and raises 2 E to F).

So, you only have one lower occupied on your changer so far, P6?
You should be able to move that one to the lowest lower hole on the changer scissor and put the whole tone lower on the lower scissor's hole closest to the raises.

Or do you have another lowering change already installed?

... J-D.