[PLEASE CLOSE]Player Tone

[Roger Rettig]

Chris:

I expect that was a moniker bestowed upon him by those who couldn't play at his level. It's meaningless, really.

Two weeks ago, I received my new 12-string Williams. Fitted with an Alumitone humbucker, I was very doubtful about my choices for a few days. Next to my LeGrande, it didn't compare. I started investigating single-coils, wondering if that was the key.

I barely touched my amps.

Now? It sounds great to me (okay, I'm still getting thrown by the D13th every so-often) - that 'dull, lifeless' tone has gone away and the guitar sings. It's not my ears, but I've become more confident behind this alien setup and confidence changes how one hits the strings.

PS: 'The master of touch and tone' was Emmons, in my opinion. He had different tonality at times, but his execution was so refined that he always seemed to be in complete control.

This instrument is so HARD!!!

[Chris Templeton]

Roger, How do you like D13th? Do you find the string gauges give you what you like with C6th & E9th?
Does playing up high, in Hugheyland, so to speak, still sound like you'd expect?
I was fortunate to have taken lessons from Buddy, Jerry Byrd, Jeff Newman and working for Robert Randolph as his guitar tech and along with their amazing picking hands is their unbelievable bar hands, skating effortlessly around the fretboard.
At different steel shows I sometimes grew tired of players BSing on the A & B pedals until the next muscle memory idea comes along.
Most listeners don't hear that, and I mostly end up wishing I could play that fast.
Roger, enjoy your new rig!

[Roger Rettig]

Chris:

I'd say it was close enough to make no difference. Take that fat Fmaj9 chord on C6 on strings 9 to 2: it's a Gmaj9 on my new guitar but warm and rich. With RKR held over, it's:
1,3,5,6,ma7,2,3,5, ma7 (strings 11-3).

Old P5 and 8 work exactly like they do on C6 (albeit a tone higher; minimal, in my opinion) while old P6 and 7 require RKR if you're playing the low strings.

I'm finding the 6th 'half' of the tuning more intuitive. Speaking personally, I've been trying to get away from the standard A/B stuff; for one reason, the best exponents are bewilderingly adept - Paul, Travis, Gary C, Mike Smith and many more - and leave me in their dust. For another, it can trap you into cliches with little musical depth. I always preferred the E9th 9th string as my root, anyway.

Speed? Any technique I had has been depleted by essential tremors and it's becoming a futile endeavour.

'Hugheyland'? No, there's nothing lost. I'm still catching that extra 6th tone (the new 5th string - a B) in error and I wouldn't dare take this out on a gig yet but, as JC has amply demonstrated, nothing is lost.

I have always wanted more bottom-end on the 9th neck - I now have it. I'm currently 'transposing' my erstwhile E9 version of Bacharach's 'Alfie' to the new tuning. I moved it down from G to F (I always wanted it lower but E9 wouldn't permit it) and, while it's far from fluid, it's sounding better than before and I'm using a mixture of the left- and right-side pedals.

My quest these days is for chord-voicings. The potential with D13 8+6 - once I've tweaked a couple of outlying pulls to meet my needs - seems endless. Most of Johnny's pulls are best adhered to strictly but I have some musical priorities born of sixty years of playing that I must, with all respect, satisfy. Shifting from the old 9th sounds to 6th-style is seamless. It's a truly universal tuning.

Deepest apologies for drifting away from the OP's point!

[Fred Treece]

In another similar thread running concurrently with this one, it was suggested that one way to find out how much of your tone is “in the hands” is to practice unplugged. Think what you want about that; I believe it rings true.

The flip side of that idea is to plug your guitar straight into the amp - no volume pedal, no fx, nothing between the guitar jack and the amp input - to find the true unaltered tone and volume of your guitar/amp combination. That’s how I discovered that all 3 of my volume pedals were sucking signal, tone-wise and volume-wise, in a simple Guitar-VP-Amp Input path. Didn’t matter what I did with my hands.

I won’t hijack the discussion by detailing the experiment, and possible solutions for this problem. I just think it is important enough to mention the concept in any discussion about where tone comes from, how it can be so elusive, and how unhelpful and discouraging a misinformational cliché can be.

[Donny Hinson]

Geeze, I hear 'ya Fred. And I hear similar things all the time about "tone-sucking" volume pedals, but the problem isn't in the volume pedal! Follow me, here. Our volume pedal serves exactly the same function as the volume control in a Tele. For all intents and purposes, it's exactly the same component in exactly the same point in the circuit. But do Teles lack highs? (Even with the addition of a tone control, which many steelplayers bypassed "to get better highs".) Listen to some early '60s country records, before powered pedals and buffers came along. Did Lloyd Green ever lack highs on his Warner Mack or Johnny Paycheck recordings? How about Tom Brumley on all that Buck Owens' stuff? Did Buddy Emmons lack highs on the old Ray Price stuff? Maybe I'm talking out of my hat, but I guess those guys knew something we didn't.

Below are some good examples of songs that I'm pretty sure were recorded with a "tone-sucking, high-destroying" pot pedal: (You be the judge.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU8Jn2i7U2U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liTxwoL_Yps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDDWbXvfa34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7ZeJpkOlcw

Comments are welcome!

[Fred Treece]

Those guys obviously knew a lot of “somethings” we don’t, Donny.

The premise goes, “Here’s the tone-sucking volume pedal, the solution to the problem is right there in your basic V/B/M/T amp settings.” Maybe so, but it remains a secret to me. It is so much simpler to get the VP signal in between the preamp and power amp. The heck with magic boxes and buffers and fancy pedals! The answer for me actually was in the amp, just not on the front panel, and it has opened up a whole new world of tonal possibilities.

I believe the Peavey Nashville amps even feature this option on the front panel. I’ve never owned one, but it would have made things a bit clearer to me.

[Thornton Lewis]

What part of tone is in your hands?
I think dynamics can be considered part of tone and one difficult aspect that most great players have mastered is the ability to play a dyad or triad where the components are played at different volumes. Lloyd Greene is a master of this.
I also believe vibrato is part of tone and that is all in the hands.
Finally, where you place a note (and how you arrive) in relation to the beat is arguably part of tone. A tiny slide into a note that puts it just behind the beat is arguably rhythm or style but to me it's tonal. Same with hitting it on the beat and letting it ring just a smidge as you move away from it.
All of this is in your hands. You can add any kind of effect to these things and your tone will change radically, but these techniques will always notably affect that tone.

[Dave Stagner]

Speaking of amp settings… tonight, I took a borrowed steel (that I’m considering buying) to a jam, to get feedback from other musicians there. Signal chain was steel (single coil pickup) to Freeloader to Goodrich volume to a Fender Tone Master Deluxe. Set how I usually set it with my ZB, I found it difficult. Tone was too bright, lacked oomph, and was hard to control with the volume pedal (playing at acoustic volumes, mind you). After a while, I went to the amp, turned the treble down and the gain UP. After that, my tone improved immensely, because the volume pedal started responding properly. Problems with being “too loud” went away, despite the amp actually being louder.

So even to the extent that “tone is in the hands”, if the signal chain doesn’t give you the kind of dynamics you expect/need, you’re going to struggle with tone.

[Jim Pitman]

Yes much is in the hands but.......
I can say I have owned a couple PSGs that didn't like the tone I was getting from. I won't name the brands because perhaps it was the particular guitar(s).
It had very little to do with the pickups/amps having tried many on the same guitar.
I finally concluded the guitars I didn't like lacked the sustain I was after and believe me this does vary noticeably form brand to brand and to a degree guitar to guitar even within the same brand.

[Chris Templeton]

Jim, any thoughst between wooden an metal necks?

[John Sims]

For me, I finally found the 'tone' that I like with my U-12 and Nashville 1000. It took many years to find, but the right hand is key also. It's funny how 'tone' changes with the ever so slightest change regarding where you pluck the strings...

[Fred Treece]

Here’s a list of factors I have gleaned from this thread on what is meant by “tone is in the hands”.

Right hand—
- Where to pick along length of string
- The default pick attack - how hard
- Which finger/thumb strikes string
- Angle the picks hit strings
- Expression and dynamics (not volume pedal)
Left Hand—
- Weight of bar
- Downward pressure on bar
- Vibrato (?)
- Limiting string noise & other muting effectiveness

Both Hands—
- Are subject to overall tension in the body
- Overall technique and confidence in one’s ability to play

As many have mentioned here, tone is obviously not ALL in the hands (or the head!), but at least we are getting somewhere in understanding, all other contributing factors being equal, what the hands actually do contribute to making music on a steel guitar.

I’ve probably missed a thing or two, so feel free to add.
A few things have been mentioned several times, so hopefully this post will clean up some of that from future comments.

[Jerry Overstreet]

Yes Fred. Once again much wisdom and insight..those are all very important things that have to be learned. I think everybody realizes you have to be proficient in order to get a good sound.

What spurred me to open this topic is about the other factors that contribute to a player's tone and how some people's comments to other player's questions regarding equipment sometimes seem patronizing and demeaning. Particularly in cases where they know nothing about the player or their history.

Comments like don't waste your money on gear, you can't buy tone, just learn to play are not helpful. Obviously, those posters have a different view from my and many other's opinion and are never going to be open minded enough to consider everything involved.

It's way too broad an issue to be limited to any one factor.

I've taken to not responding to such comments any more or, in some cases, just not reading them in the first place because I know they're going to be negative and not helpful...sometimes not even relevant.

It was just my rant and I've stated my position so I'm good. I think this topic has run it's course and can be closed as far as I'm concerned.
If there has been any help and understanding for others to come from the discussion, that's great.

[Donny Hinson]

Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars.

[Jerry Overstreet]

Yes Fred. Once again much wisdom and insight..those are all very important things that have to be learned. I think everybody realizes you have to be proficient in order to get a good sound.

What spurred me to open this topic is about the other factors that contribute to a player's tone and how some people's comments to other player's questions regarding equipment sometimes seem patronizing and demeaning. Particularly in cases where they know nothing about the player or their history.

Comments like don't waste your money on gear, you can't buy tone, just learn to play are not helpful. Obviously, those posters have a different view from my and many other's opinion and are never going to be open minded enough to consider everything involved.

It's way too broad an issue to be limited to any one factor.

I've taken to not responding to such comments any more or, in some cases, just not reading them in the first place because I know they're going to be negative and not helpful...sometimes not even relevant.

It was just my rant and I've stated my position so I'm good. I think this topic has run it's course and can be closed as far as I'm concerned.
If there has been any help and understanding for others to come from the discussion, that's great.