Aluminum vs Wood Neck
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Chris Templeton
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- Joined: 25 Sep 2012 4:20 pm
- Location: The Green Mountain State
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J D Sauser
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- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
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So... I am with Bobbe Seymoure... for once (preferring cast aluminum over extrusion/billet for tone.
My reasoning is the brittle molecular structure which cast metals have. They don't bend, they brake and leave a porous breaking section, while extrusion/billet can even be bent.
And then..., after reading all opinions, doubts and the whole controversy, I did some new research.
I lately find myself listening to a lot of Lyonel Hampton on the Vibraphone. A tremendous sounding instrument. Huge tone, sustain and ring to no end!
So, I located and contacted a few Vibraphone manufacturers and repair shops, after -to my surprise- I found only ONE online post of somebody having a broken tone bar!
What I got back about the type of aluminum used and being used for tone bars on Vibraphone, has me at least very surprised.
Turns out, the tone bars on top of the line instruments (during it's heydays) were made of what was known as "Duralumin" which was invented in Germany 100 years ago, an alloy that includes copper and is "heat treated" slowly cooling over days after pressure is applied. Stock "Duralumin" is extremely hard and will brake when bent but NOT leave the porous breaking cross section of cast alloy! It is COLD PRESSED, and -I hate to admit- NOT cast. And it rings and rings and rings.
They (the Vibraphone folks) have machining and grinding techniques to tune not just the fundamental tone, but the overtones (I still don't understand HOW, but one played me one showing me ALL Major thirds to sound quite free of the typical ET-grind... which would seem impossible as the Major third overtones of the root not ringing tone bar would naturally be 11 cents lower than it's calculated ET value, which is what creates that "grind" between the two notes).
So there you have it! Bobbe & JD had it all wrong!
Still, most likely those aluminum neck guitars post "Cast"-era PSGs machined from billet aluminum are unlikely to be made from "Duralumin" but in most cases more stress resistant air-craft grade alloys.
Personally, while Billet is more even, almost never has flaws or holes and thus is easier to machined, polish and probably structurally more trustable than cast, given the history of the the earliest steel guitars made from cast alloy or brittle Bakelite and still carrying the reputation of having been the best sounding instruments, IF I had to use alloy for sound-related parts, I would prefer cast.
Thanks!... J-D
My reasoning is the brittle molecular structure which cast metals have. They don't bend, they brake and leave a porous breaking section, while extrusion/billet can even be bent.
And then..., after reading all opinions, doubts and the whole controversy, I did some new research.
I lately find myself listening to a lot of Lyonel Hampton on the Vibraphone. A tremendous sounding instrument. Huge tone, sustain and ring to no end!
So, I located and contacted a few Vibraphone manufacturers and repair shops, after -to my surprise- I found only ONE online post of somebody having a broken tone bar!
What I got back about the type of aluminum used and being used for tone bars on Vibraphone, has me at least very surprised.
Turns out, the tone bars on top of the line instruments (during it's heydays) were made of what was known as "Duralumin" which was invented in Germany 100 years ago, an alloy that includes copper and is "heat treated" slowly cooling over days after pressure is applied. Stock "Duralumin" is extremely hard and will brake when bent but NOT leave the porous breaking cross section of cast alloy! It is COLD PRESSED, and -I hate to admit- NOT cast. And it rings and rings and rings.
They (the Vibraphone folks) have machining and grinding techniques to tune not just the fundamental tone, but the overtones (I still don't understand HOW, but one played me one showing me ALL Major thirds to sound quite free of the typical ET-grind... which would seem impossible as the Major third overtones of the root not ringing tone bar would naturally be 11 cents lower than it's calculated ET value, which is what creates that "grind" between the two notes).
So there you have it! Bobbe & JD had it all wrong!
Still, most likely those aluminum neck guitars post "Cast"-era PSGs machined from billet aluminum are unlikely to be made from "Duralumin" but in most cases more stress resistant air-craft grade alloys.
Personally, while Billet is more even, almost never has flaws or holes and thus is easier to machined, polish and probably structurally more trustable than cast, given the history of the the earliest steel guitars made from cast alloy or brittle Bakelite and still carrying the reputation of having been the best sounding instruments, IF I had to use alloy for sound-related parts, I would prefer cast.
Thanks!... J-D
__________________________________________________________
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Dennis Detweiler
- Posts: 3488
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- Location: Solon, Iowa, US
For sure, the Vibraphone is the most captivating sound and perfect tone. Using that particular metal for building a steel guitar would probably push the cost/retail price to the max.
The early ShoBud's had a cast frame. I bought a new Baldwin Crossover in 1970. Great tone and sustain, but very heavy. The downside was the rack and barrel pulling system.
The early ShoBud's had a cast frame. I bought a new Baldwin Crossover in 1970. Great tone and sustain, but very heavy. The downside was the rack and barrel pulling system.
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.
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Chris Templeton
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Donny Hinson
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- Location: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Ah yes, "cold-pressed" (also known more commonly as cold forged).
JD, there's a heckuva lotta science in the design of vibratone bars, and most people don't know that the back of the bars is sculpted so they're thicker on the ends than they are in the middle. They're tuned with a critical balance between dissonance and volume, because a slight dissonance adds volume and (audio) sharpness. The old "ET tuning conundrum" (clashing tones and overtones) is still there, they're just not as noticeable. And in that aspect, the vibratone is like a piano; a percussion instrument wherein the vibrating member is struck with soft mallets, so the sound is somewhat muted compared with our instrument, which is normally played with hard picks, which tend to magnify the dissonances. (The sharper the note attack, the more the nasty imperfections of equal temperament are noticed.)
And I'll also throw out this bit of trivia: Replacement vibratone bars are about the only item you'll almost never find on Ebay or Amazon!
(Why? Because they never go bad!)
JD, there's a heckuva lotta science in the design of vibratone bars, and most people don't know that the back of the bars is sculpted so they're thicker on the ends than they are in the middle. They're tuned with a critical balance between dissonance and volume, because a slight dissonance adds volume and (audio) sharpness. The old "ET tuning conundrum" (clashing tones and overtones) is still there, they're just not as noticeable. And in that aspect, the vibratone is like a piano; a percussion instrument wherein the vibrating member is struck with soft mallets, so the sound is somewhat muted compared with our instrument, which is normally played with hard picks, which tend to magnify the dissonances. (The sharper the note attack, the more the nasty imperfections of equal temperament are noticed.)
And I'll also throw out this bit of trivia: Replacement vibratone bars are about the only item you'll almost never find on Ebay or Amazon!
(Why? Because they never go bad!)
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Lee Baucum
- Posts: 10326
- Joined: 11 Apr 1999 12:01 am
- Location: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
Hence the term..."Good Vibes".Donny Hinson wrote:JD, there's a heckuva lotta science in the design of vibratone bars, and most people don't know that the back of the bars is sculpted so they're thicker on the ends than they are in the middle. They're tuned with a critical balance between dissonance and volume, because a slight dissonance adds volume and (audio) sharpness. The old "ET tuning conundrum" (clashing tones and overtones) is still there, they're just not as noticeable. And in that aspect, the vibratone is like a piano; a percussion instrument wherein the vibrating member is struck with soft mallets, so the sound is somewhat muted compared with our instrument, which is normally played with hard picks, which tend to magnify the dissonances. (The sharper the note attack, the more the nasty imperfections of equal temperament are noticed.)
When I played a GFI Ultra D-10, both necks were wooden, and they sounded awesome, but when I got my Jackson Blackjack Custom, I found out it's got an aluminum neck. I think the aluminum neck sounds really awesome! I'm going to try out my Clinesmith bar on my Jackson steel to see how it works as soon as I can get the steel set up in the basement of my house.