The names for the second LKL and second LKR

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 16 Sep 2023 3:53 pm

I have an Excel Superb universal and it has 3 levers on the left knee: one directly left, one directly right, and one vertical. I'd like to have a Crawford cluster with 2 more left knees: one forward to the left and one forward to the right.

Is there a standard name for these levers? I know people write LKL1, LKL2 on copedents, but which is 1? The 1 nearer the front apron? The 1 nearer the player?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 16 Sep 2023 4:38 pm

I've never seen anything even close to standardized language for doubled-up levers. Hell, there's barely agreement on the nomenclature for the first five levers. When accurate communication matters (such as when I am discussing setup with the builder working on my new 7 lever guitar) I abandon any hope of shorthand names and I am very specific in describing LKL2/outside/front LKL1/inside/rear etc.
"Crawford Cluster" is as close as I've ever seen to there being an actual 'thing with a name' rather than just yet one more personal odd setup. But my second doubled set is RKR 1 & 2.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 16 Sep 2023 5:37 pm

Yes fair enough that's what I figured but I was hoping I was wrong. I think "LKL2/outside/front LKL1/inside/rear" as you say will have to do.

By the way how do you find having more than 2 right knees? I feel like more than 2 right knees might really diminish my volume pedal control when I go for the third or fourth lever.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 16 Sep 2023 5:46 pm

I've been playing double RKR levers for quite a while and they are much used, essential levers. And volume pedal control is still an issue, a challenge, and a work in progress. A frank, unfortunate response to your question.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 16 Sep 2023 9:07 pm

Well I'd rather have an honest answer, thank you for that!

I think for my purposes I'll do the Crawford Cluster on the left for now.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 17 Sep 2023 12:50 am

I'm curious to know what changes you plan to put on these? It could affect their placement.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 17 Sep 2023 7:53 am

I'm not sure where I want to put all the changes on the cluster yet. I ended up with a B->Bb vertical lever and a B->A LKL. So I'd like to get a half stop kit to put them both on B->Bb/A like Tommy White.

This would leave me three free levers on the left knee. I think I'd just use them as splits of changes I have on existing pedals. The guitar is an extended E9 so I'd like to have dedicated levers for a few of the bass string changes I do.

If there's one thing I've learned from tinkering with all this stuff it's that I won't really know what I want until I put in the play time.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 17 Sep 2023 9:00 am

Not sure if there is a standard how to name those extra knee levers. I have LKL1 LKL2 LKV LKR, pedals 1 - 7 and RKL RKR1 RKR2 where LKL1 and RKR1 are furthest to the front of the guitar.

My Zumsteel S12extE9 originally came with LKL1 LKL2 LKV LKR1 LKR2 and RKL RKR

I found the LKL2 to be a pain in the ... to use comfortably so I moved it to become a RKR2 instead.

Since I dont shift between RKR1 and RKR2 in the middle of a melody run, I have plenty time to adjust ever so slightly and there is no issue with the volume pedal

The setup/copedent is made so my natural (80% of the time) position will give easy access to LKL2 and RKR1. If I twist my hips ever so slightly clockwise I will be set to use LKL1 and RKR2. If my left knee move like 1 inch forward then the right knee move 1 inch backwards. MY knee levers are fairly close to my knees and there is just a tiny bit of clearance from the front levers when I use the rear knee levers.
I can use both LKL1 and LKL2 at same time if i wedge the outer round part of left knee mid between both LKL levers but I very seldom need that combo altho it is possible to do both at the same time.

Think carefull if you reeeally want two LKR levers as they are not that easy to use separately. It will require a substantial body movement to get access to one or the other. Two knee-levers mowing outward is not a problem for either left or right knee tho.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 17 Sep 2023 9:05 am

Thank you Bengt, that's great to hear! I really like the idea of having 3 on each side, plus the vertical on the left. Slightly rotating to a new set of knee levers makes a lot of sense too. Hmm now I really have to think!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 17 Sep 2023 10:51 am

I've always understood the 'LKL1'/'LKL2' system and have assumed that LKL1 is the KL placed nearest to the back-apron.

More than two KLs on the right?? I couldn't handle that, I'm afraid. I've heard of a RKV!!!!

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 17 Sep 2023 11:25 pm

LKLL(left) & LKLR (right)
LKLR (rear) & LKLF (front) (the inside one will always be further to the front)
LKLO (out) & LKLI (inside)

My Left Knee Cluster is usually marked:

LKLL, LKLR, LKVL, LKVR, LKR
Never got one wrong or even a question.

… JD

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 18 Sep 2023 8:27 am

Thank you JD! I like 'rear' and 'front' those are pretty unambiguous I think.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 18 Sep 2023 9:37 am

Many, many years ago I did some work on an old MSA D-10.

Someone had installed a vertical lever for the right knee.

They did a great job, using MSA parts; but, it wasn't easy to use.

~Lee

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 18 Sep 2023 10:28 am

Justin Shaw wrote:Thank you JD! I like 'rear' and 'front' those are pretty unambiguous I think.

And “unambigious” was the word I was locking for this morning when I wrote this. Ha!

… JD.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 18 Sep 2023 5:24 pm

I go with LKL-F and LKL-R meaning Front (closer to guitar front) and Rear (closer to guitar rear).

I always have staggered Left levers like that. My next experiment is adding a LKR-R.

My pet peeve is students who cite levers they're using by their position names (LKL, RKL, etc.), because what you put on which levers can vary a lot. Like on my guitars, E's up and down are on the right side, opposite of most setups. I prefer the names E lever, F lever, D lever and G lever, which pretty closely describe those levers' functions. The vertical is just vertical.

Sorry for the rant!

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 18 Sep 2023 7:41 pm

I have staggered left knee levers on both my Zum Hybrids, and another thing I have found helpful is a small flag on the front Left lever... with a bit of a bend in it, just to make it easier to hit without a lot of extra leg movement.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 18 Sep 2023 8:04 pm

J D Sauser wrote:
Justin Shaw wrote:Thank you JD! I like 'rear' and 'front' those are pretty unambiguous I think.
And “unambigious” was the word I was locking for this morning when I wrote this. Ha!

… JD.

Haha that's funny

When I wrote it I had a second where I thought "wait that's a double negative isn't it? Shouldn't I just say 'specific'?"

I emailed Excel using 'front' and 'rear' and I think it'll be clear enough.

I'm really looking forward to the extra levers, as I think I'm approaching my perfect copedent, finally. I will definitely look at fine tuning things with flags and stuff, Paddy, thank you for that.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 18 Sep 2023 10:50 pm

John McClung wrote:I go with LKL-F and LKL-R meaning Front (closer to guitar front) and Rear (closer to guitar rear).

I always have staggered Left levers like that. My next experiment is adding a LKR-R.

My pet peeve is students who cite levers they're using by their position names (LKL, RKL, etc.), because what you put on which levers can vary a lot. Like on my guitars, E's up and down are on the right side, opposite of most setups. I prefer the names E lever, F lever, D lever and G lever, which pretty closely describe those levers' functions. The vertical is just vertical.

Sorry for the rant!

I agree.
I remember the earlier times when specially on E9th, levers were alphabeted thru after A, B and C pedals on “teaching material”, with total disregard of what they were doing. Even Jeff’s courses had that abigiousity solidly built in.

I think there is thus a logical nomenclature for both separately, the musical use and another for the mechanical (builder’s) use.

As an example, I would have said that on E9th my RKL would be my “Eb”-lever while RKR would be my “F”-lever. That’s how I’ve been describing changes for over 2 Decades and never got a single “what’cha mean” back.

Paul Franklin goes further in his online course as he names all chages by how (+/-) it affects which string(s) (#), and I think it is the right way to teach a student.
I was at a 3 day Jeff Newman seminar in Lakeland,FL in the late late 90’s and ther was about a dozan men. 3 played in bands and clubs. To my surprise and Jeff rolling his eyes NONE had a clear idea of which strings each E9th change would affect by how much. In other words if Jeff say raise you 3rd & 6th strin half they seemed unsure to have THAT change. But hey could PLAY!
“LOST PEDAL MASHERS” Jeff called them out laughing.
He later told be it was quite common and even worse on C6th.

Different subject… JD.