I'm bumming about finger picking

Chris Harwood · Post by **Chris Harwood** » 12 Sep 2023 9:59 am

I used to play banjo, but set it down in favor of electric guitar, primarily because I was finding it hard to just sit down and improvise on banjo, with "pre=determined" picking finger patterns and rolls. I never got to the point where I could get away from the rigidity of it. Bela Fleck being on the extreme end of someone that just plays what's in his head and not just spewing out Scruggs derived picking patterns. Also, the weight of the banjo wasn't helping things much either. Dang things are heavy... at least my high end Deering is...12 lbs maybe?? Guitar, I can noodle for days and hopefully not repeat much

Now with my console steel, I'm finding the finger picking to be physically uncomfortable, with my palm for the most part, facing the strings, versus the position it would be standing up holding a banjo...or guitar for that matter. My palm facing my body with my arm mostly hanging down. However, flat picking on lap/console steel has always felt natural and never hurt. My guitar abilities easily transfer.

So...I'm wondering if I just haven't developed the feel for fingerpicking on my steels or if I'm just doing it wrong....or my 70 year old hands and habits say... nope...that's uncomfortable.

I don't want to really struggle and push on thru, and like I said, am quite comfortable and feel very at home with a flatpick. I posted a thread earlier about steelers using flat picks and un-earthed a slew of VERY worthy players that don't use the thumb and finger picks. But I love hearing the cleanly finger picked runs and passages on the steel guitar...especially a great pedal player, and would love to get into that boat. I can "kinda" achieve that with my flatpick...but its like palm levers versus pedal steels. You might fool your girlfriend in a mix...but it's not the same.

Anybody else with NON-arthritic hands that find finger picking to not feel like a nice "back rub" or a dip in the hot tub?

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 12 Sep 2023 10:46 am

Though I primarily played guitar with a plectrum, I’ve always felt that my undisciplined fingerstyle playing has helped me a lot in being able to acclimate to playing steel. It is a long process that develops and changes over time. I don’t know how long you’ve been playing, but it will take time to develop that comfort level and accuracy.

As far as using a pick, there is no one to police you on it, but once you discover things that you are unable to do with a pick alone you might make adjustments. This is natural. I’ve been playing a littlw more than 20 years and I’ve gone through many changes. Right now, I am mostly playing with bare fingers, especially because I can use use 4 fingers comfortably, but it does hurt my thumb and ring finger after a while, so I might slap a pick on those two fingers and leave the index and middle fingers bare. But I don’t like the pick on the ring finger if I have them on the other 3. It’s strange, but your body will tell you what is working for you if you listen.

My picking right now has risen to a higher level than ever before because I am able to use unorthodox techniques with bare fingers.

Noah Miller · Post by **Noah Miller** » 12 Sep 2023 11:23 am

I have never been able to use finger picks on steels, banjos, guitars, or what have you. Some people will say that it's just a matter of practice, but 20 years in, my fingers simply do not bend that way. I could manage a thumb pick but the rest are physically incapable of moving in the necessary directions.

So I use bare fingers on almost everything - and I haven't yet found a downside to it. Occasionally I'll use a flat pick on guitar if it gets the right tone for the recording, but for me, lap steel is finger food.

Chris Harwood · Post by **Chris Harwood** » 12 Sep 2023 11:34 am

Mike Neer wrote: I don’t know how long you’ve been playing, but it will take time to develop that comfort level and accuracy.

Yeah...I understand and thanks for commenting. I've been playing about 60 years now on guitar...so a bit now. My point is turning my hand and moving my fingers, with it in the position to fingerpick, is just uncomfortable. Kinda like sitting on the couch, with a pillow not positioned just right. I doesn't really hurt, but it almost fatigues instantly. I pick up a flatpick and can go for hours.

Maybe my fingerpicking muscles are just too "green" and I should persist a little longer. IDK...but being a "crappy" player at this point, isn't all that interesting at this point. Could be called lazy too, I suppose. lol!

Joe A. Roberts · Post by **Joe A. Roberts** » 12 Sep 2023 12:33 pm

The holy trinity since the beginning of the instrument with Kekuku (if that old story is true):
1. strings on a horizontal plane
2. tonebar
3. fingerpicks

Getting used to fingerpicks is awkward and can take time.
I am skeptical that people can have a physical inability to use picks if they can use and move their fingers without picks just fine.
The motor skill is clearly there in such a case, it just needs refining!

While I think a earnest effort should be made to try, one of course doesn’t necessarily need to use fingerpicks.
Some guys like Bobby Koeffer (who played only using a thumbpick without using any fingers) are amazing despite unorthodox technique.
Andy Iona was the opposite of Bobby Koeffer: he lost his thumb in a machine shop and thus only used fingerpicks.
To get those lush hawaiian strums he wore a fingerpick backwards on his ring finger!

If using a flatpick is working for you, then why not. Especially if you are coming from banjo, I assume played with picks, yet are still having trouble on steel.
You would definitely need to develop some kind of hybrid picking technique with free fingers to grab, say, sixths and octaves.

David Matzenik · Post by **David Matzenik** » 12 Sep 2023 12:43 pm

I studied Flamenco guitar as a teenager, so I suppose finger picks should have felt unnatural to me. However, when I put them on for the first time, I loved them and how they gave me a kind of harpsichord effect on the twelve string guitar.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 12 Sep 2023 1:11 pm

I used my nails for about 50 years. When you get older they start to dry out and grind and chip away. So I went online to see what was available in a finger pick that leaves the flesh of your finger exposed. Alaska picks and Fred Kelly freedom picks do that. Bought some on the way to a gig…used the Alaska pics that night on the gig. They are fabulous. I use two of each as four of one kind spread your fingers out. Kelley picks on 1,2 and Alaska picks on three and four. I only use the thumb pick if I am recording or if I am live and have to attack hard.

In regards to going from banjo/guitar to a flat thing in front of you. If you are having trouble then cut you a block of wood and Velcro it to your guitar so you can rest your palm there and also as you palm mute the lower strings. Keep practicing and you will get use to it at some point.

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 12 Sep 2023 3:26 pm

I'm like Bill. Played guitar with my nails for years, but age has made my nails fairly useless.

I played banjo with picks for years, as I did with guitar playing ragtime and the like. I use the same picks on steel as I do on banjo and 6 string, but I bend them a little differently--a bit more right angle to the tip of the finger where with banjo and guitar I have them straighter. I use either a medium John Pearse National style thumbpick or a Fred Kelly Speed pick.

As for the OP comments on banjo playing--there were some completely amazing fingerstyle banjo players like Fred Van Eps who completely resisted the pattern problem. Still a bunch of them around. Bela wasn't the first, nor was Tony. I played 3 finger banjo 7 nights a week for way too long and got disillusioned with the repetitiveness too. Took up melodic clawhammer (which really didn't exist yet--I just learned note for note from fiddlers) and that kept me from giving up banjo...

Anyway, picks are useable. But they take some experimentation and getting used to.

Dave

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 12 Sep 2023 6:22 pm

I played banjo for 20+ years before I tried steel, I never really had an issue with using fingerpicks on the horizontal plane of the steel — maybe I just didn’t think about it that much.

Oddly enough, I can’t hold a flat pick anymore when I play electric or acoustic guitar — I can only play them with bare fingers.

Lloyd Graves · Post by **Lloyd Graves** » 13 Sep 2023 3:51 am

Chris, have you tried adjusting the angle of your console so that it does downward, away from you?

When I had a D8 I found that a horizontal console fatigued my wrists and made everything awkward. Changing the angle helped, but going to a metal bodied dobro helped more.

As for picks (on the steel), I like propicks, which show the meat of your fingers. And Acri's delron and brass thumb pick.

Ultimately, it's your journey, so do what feels best. It's a humbling instrument and I definitely feel like a beginner on the steel. After 30 years on the banjo (clawhammer, primarily), it really sucks!

Ted Duncan · Post by **Ted Duncan** » 13 Sep 2023 6:16 pm

I started finger picking the guitar in the mid 1960's, over the last 10 or more years I've tried my hand at clawhammer banjo. Off and on I have put considerable effort into trying to play with finger picks or my finger nails with no success.

All of these years I have been able to find the right strings and get the exact tone I wanted with my finger tips ... until I started with lap steel. Granted, I didn't have much time with the instrument before my problem with locking finger joints interfered ... but I could clearly see that I was not going to be able to get the correct sound on lap steel with my finger tips ... its just too dull and flat sounding.

But regular finger picks REALLY feel unnatural to me and stick out way too far beyond my finger tips. AT 73 I would have to change a lot, maybe too much.

I did a search and have decided to give these a try when/if I can get my fingers fixed. It looks like the steel of the pick can be adjusted pretty much exactly where my nekkid fingers grab - or strike the strings. Very different from traditional finger picks. For me they are worth a try.

Now I have to find a thumb pick that fits.

Except for the fit on the index finger in the photo below ... the other fingers look like I can make this work.

Something else I found was that the height of the lap steel really makes a big difference to my hands and wrists. Any more than 4 inches off my lap and the angles just don't work right.

Of course, as in all things, ymmv

UPDATE OCTOBER 12

A number of folks have sent me PMs about this ... I am going to up date my post today.

I've been using the el-cheapo no-names found on Amazon. These are made from stainless. I am not 100% completely satisfied with them because they are very had to bend. Since my post, I have been digging around to find what else is out there. I did see some at Elderly Instruments. They are ProPic that are made from nickle, but they are a bit more expensive at $10 per each.

The el-cheapos can be found:

Amazon no name https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel- ... B000NGVQKO 3 for $8.99 ... I get a free ride with Prime.

Banjo.com has them ProPick https://banjo.com/product/propik-finger ... -pick-set/ 2 for $6.95 free ride.

I saw them on Ebay no name https://www.ebay.com/itm/275969916456

or search for: 3 x Stainless Steel, Open Design, Metal Finger Picks for Guitar, Banjo, Dobro

$13.26 ride included for 3.

Again, Sorry I didn't include this info in my post. I haven't purchased from all vendors, but from my eye I guess the el cheapos would all be pretty much the same.
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Chris Harwood · Post by **Chris Harwood** » 13 Sep 2023 6:28 pm

Height may be the key. You may have alerted me to something. I made legs for my console but they are fixed length...but my chair height isnt!

Mike Harris · Post by **Mike Harris** » 14 Sep 2023 4:11 am

I'm a converted classical guitarist who uses fingernails on dobro and lap steel (I do use a thumbpick, which took a while to get used to). I can't stand those banjo fingerpicks. If a nail breaks I can substitute one or more Alaska piks, which behave somewhat like a natural nail. You might try those.

I don't see a problem with fingertips--you wouldn't be the first. You may need to experiment with the tone knob to get a brighter sound more like the rest of us get. But we're all periodically adjusting the tone knob anyway. Good luck with this, I hope you figure it out to your satisfaction.

Norman Evans · Post by **Norman Evans** » 14 Sep 2023 5:12 am

Dave Biller seems to do ok with a single pick. I just wish I could do this good with three picks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTxHF_Pn38U

Lloyd Graves · Post by **Lloyd Graves** » 15 Sep 2023 6:11 pm

Chris Harwood wrote:Height may be the key. You may have alerted me to something. I made legs for my console but they are fixed length...but my chair height isnt!

If that doesn't work, shims under the near-side feet could add that tilt I was talking about.

Let us know how it turns out.

Aidan Pickering · Post by **Aidan Pickering** » 16 Sep 2023 7:36 am

Shhh…don’t tell anyone I told you this cos it’s kinda embarrassing. I can’t stand finger picks - they make me feel like Freddy Krueger. I tried all the Alaska picks, tape, plastic, metal and nothing worked. Here’s what I do now. I go to my wife’s nail salon and get a set of acrylic nails put on my right hand. Now I’m gonna tell ya they’re gonna look at you funny when you first come in. But just tell ‘em what you want. Acrylic nails, one hand, matt finish NOT gloss (made that mistake once - hid my hand in my pocket for 2 weeks.). You’re gonna sit there for 20 minutes mostly in silence cos there’ll be a language barrier. Not stereotyping it’s just how it is. When you’re done and you’ve paid your 20 or 25 bucks go get a coarse nail file and file them exactly how you want. I go really short. And rounded. But whatever feels good. Amazing thing about acrylics you’ll never break them. I’ve swing my whole arm at a Les Paul Pete Townshend style and you can’t break ‘em. Now I use them for fingerpicking guitar, lap steel and square neck. I got the idea from watching a Johnnie Hiland video. And that boy can pick! So that’s my advice if you’re willing to brave a visit to the “forbidden city” in your local strip mall.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 16 Sep 2023 8:31 am

a big part of success with finger picks is having the right pick that feels comfortable, secure, with an angle and reach that makes picking strings easier. Personally I found propik reso picks to be the most comfortable and secure.

I play both with fingertips and picks. You really do need to come to grips using picks because so much is lost without them. IMHO

Ted Duncan · Post by **Ted Duncan** » 16 Sep 2023 9:22 am

Aidan Pickering wrote: Here’s what I do now. I go to my wife’s nail salon and get a set of acrylic nails put on my right hand. Now I’m gonna tell ya they’re gonna look at you funny when you first come in. But just tell ‘em what you want. Acrylic nails, one hand, matt finish NOT gloss (made that mistake once - hid my hand in my pocket for 2 weeks.). You’re gonna sit there for 20 minutes mostly in silence cos there’ll be a language barrier. Not stereotyping it’s just how it is. When you’re done and you’ve paid your 20 or 25 bucks go get a coarse nail file and file them exactly how you want. I go really short. And rounded. But whatever feels good.

How long do they last?

If you can't beat them off ... how do you GET them off to put on new ones?

Did you notice any "life style" changes since you've been doing this? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I wonder if there are finger nail kits to be found on Amazon and DIY Installation vids on YT. How hard can it be?

Aidan Pickering · Post by **Aidan Pickering** » 16 Sep 2023 3:49 pm

As your natural nail grows it pushes them off. Or you go back and have them filled. It’s a process. The only lifestyle change I’ve experienced is I play guitar better. But I fully understand that some guys feel they’re just too masculine to venture into a nail salon.

Mark Evans · Post by **Mark Evans** » 16 Sep 2023 4:15 pm

Saw Clive Carroll playing before John Renbourn a few years before he passed… amazing British finger style guitar show. Clive (and I guess Renbourn, too) super glue ping pong ball pieces top their fingernails. It worked. They sounded killer

Ted Duncan wrote:
Aidan Pickering wrote: Here’s what I do now. I go to my wife’s nail salon and get a set of acrylic nails put on my right hand. Now I’m gonna tell ya they’re gonna look at you funny when you first come in. But just tell ‘em what you want. Acrylic nails, one hand, matt finish NOT gloss (made that mistake once - hid my hand in my pocket for 2 weeks.). You’re gonna sit there for 20 minutes mostly in silence cos there’ll be a language barrier. Not stereotyping it’s just how it is. When you’re done and you’ve paid your 20 or 25 bucks go get a coarse nail file and file them exactly how you want. I go really short. And rounded. But whatever feels good.
How long do they last?

If you can't beat them off ... how do you GET them off to put on new ones?

Did you notice any "life style" changes since you've been doing this? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I wonder if there are finger nail kits to be found on Amazon and DIY Installation vids on YT. How hard can it be?

Gerard Ventura · Post by **Gerard Ventura** » 18 Sep 2023 4:20 pm

I went thru various fingerpicks, none seemed to fit comfortably, but I've found these to be very flexible, lightweight, comfortable and sound great-
Dunlop 37R Brass Fingerpicks - .0225"

Lloyd Graves · Post by **Lloyd Graves** » 22 Sep 2023 2:08 pm

Aidan Pickering wrote:I go to my wife’s nail salon and get a set of acrylic nails put on my right hand.

Ray Alden, a fantastic clawhammer banjoist who has passed on, used to get "silk wraps" instead of acrylic, saying they don't chip, but rather wear down like a real finger nail. He only go three nails done at a time and looked like he had a nail fungus. The sound was phenomenal though. It's been on my To Try list for a few years.

I tried super glue on my nails once, it adhered too well, such that, when the glue broke free, I had divots in my nails. Huge divots. Took months to grow them out. I dont recommend it.

Chris Templeton · Post by **Chris Templeton** » 22 Sep 2023 6:00 pm

I've had two sets of no-name picks that had bowled blades, which eliminated the sometimes scraping sound of the edge of the pick on a wound string.
The old National finger picks are coveted for their slightly bowled like shafts.

J.D.White · Post by **J.D.White** » 25 Sep 2023 12:40 pm

Same here - I just can't get used to (or very accurate) with finger picks even with lap/console 3/8" string spacing. I'm primarily an under arm guitar player too.

Thumbpick is fine though.

I've been tempted to try acrylic nails ever since I've watched Johnny Hiland using them for both chicken pickin' and rockabilly. Probably would have never guessed except for the 3 camera angles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCIog3HBUEc

Chris Templeton · Post by **Chris Templeton** » 25 Sep 2023 1:50 pm

For a few months, in the late 80's, Buddy went with no fingerpicks, and of course, I had to try it. Although the attack was lacking, after a while, I built up calluses, which helped, but the thing I liked most was the tonal variation from callus to soft flesh.
I had a guitarist friend who went with the glue-on nails route, and getting attached to favorite picks or favorite shoes to play steel, etc. in can be upsetting if they are misplaced or can't be found.