Mike Neer wrote:Tone has several meanings. When I hear “tone is in the hands”, I think it refers less to the sonic quality of something than it does to the expression of an idea. I think “sound” is a better choice than tone in reference to sonic quality.
Good point, Mike. Tone and dynamics are related.
Regarding another aspect of “sound”, or “tone” being in the hands - what does bar hand technique have to do with it? I contend that the bar manipulates tone rather than produces it, but the effect of downward pressure on the strings, muting behind the bar, vibrato, all comes into play.
And before anyone else mentions it.... Give me 5 or 10 seconds with any great player’s preamp and I will destroy their sound. The flipside of that is, give that player 5 or 10 seconds to recover from preamp abuse, and they will do something musical with the crappy tone they’ve just been handed.
I think Mike and Bob have nailed it. Tone is what the player hears/wants. Sound is what the recipient hears. I'm nowhere near a pro player, and have probably agonized over tone as much as anyone,and mostly ended up thinking what's next? But after hearing a recording one day that my wife was listening to, I said, hey that's a song that we play sometimes, who is that, sounds really great. She had recorded us practicing for a gig one night without my knowledge. We are our own worst critic. Just keep on pickin. Someone else will tell you how you sound.
Players are listeners. We hear the sound we are producing, and the tone we are trying to shape, as well or better than anyone. I think it’s good that we are critical of our sound. The point Jerry wants us to discuss is what our hands have to do with it.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 12 Sep 2023 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
I have noticed that different guitars will have that sweet spot somewhere between the pickups and say around the 20th fret at least that’s the first thing I look for on a different guitar
I am always searching for better tone, never happy with what I hear, been that way since I started playing in 1952. It is worse now that I've picked up the PSG.
I was once told by a very good guitar player that "you will never be happy with "YOUR" tone"
I read all the postings I could, regarding tone and psg and agree "the hands are not the tone, it's your ears and mood." Hands give you the correct notes and technique. Tone is in your ears and the best tone is not achievable, a satisfactory one is.
Over the years my hearing has resulted in needing hearing aids that do not help my tonal hearing but I keep trying to improve it with various pedals and amps etc. because my hands aren't doing it..........
How did that one song go? "Don't worry, be Happy". So be Happy and enjoy what you hear, but use your hands and play the correct notes to the timing and keep pursuing that TONE.
Everything affects what you hear when you play.
All the gear down to your particular mood for that day.
You’ll know when you have enough gear when you have
no more room to fit anything more. Lots of videos on
YouTube have a few good players testing a new amp
or steel and they all sound different but just fine. It’s
a good way to hear gear, check features without being
there.
It may not be all in the hands, but it IS all in the ears.
Ricky Davis wrote:You have to know what YOU and ONLY you; want to hear
That's about it as far as I'm concerned... I'm sure Ricky is sick of me telling this story (sorry pal.. LOL) but I had a single lesson with him probably 15 years ago, maybe more.. He sat me down and watched me play a little, and immediately noticed some habits I had developed that 'might' be something I could improve on. The main thing he mentioned was that I had a really flat right hand (not that you can't have good tone with a flat right hand, it's not an absolute) and suggested and demonstrated a more 'traditional' hand shape, right elbow in, with the hand rotated more to the right, which better accommodates palm blocking, and also changes the angle of the pick fingers as they strike the string. Look at the really good players, and you'll see that hand shape a LOT.
So I tried it, and it was awkward, old habits die hard, but I immediately started hearing something a lot closer to "What I and ONLY I wanted hear". It took a long time make that hand position automatic, but it definitely made a huge difference in how happy I was with my sound. I think it also improved what I call my 'touch'.. that thing that is hard to describe, but you know it when you hear it.
All that to say, there are WAY too many 'moving parts' (literally, and that includes that player) that create the sound/tone of a steel guitar, but IMO, good technique, posture, etc. are major contributors. I'm glad I 'fixed' as much of that as I could, and I'm forever grateful to my old bud Ricky for being the great teacher he is.
and I'm forever grateful to my old bud Ricky for being the great teacher he is.
OH you are mighty welcome my Brother Bill, I loved sharing what I found in my playing; and you were an awesome pedal steel student with all your work; as you have become a GREAT pedal steel player> PERIOD!!!
And that was right around year 2000 when I live in Round Rock with first wife and taught lessons; so that was 23 HUGE years ago Bro....wow time flies.
Ricky
interesting thread about TONE, again. I have a somewhat different take, tone begins with our expectations. IF we know what we are seeking we can dial it in, if we don't really know what we are seeking , we will search forever. Each time we sit down behind the monster its another experiment. "Does this sound good to you " ?
Jim brings up a valid point about Steels with a tone control, but, all of the amps we use have tone controls, Bass, Mids ,Treble end and even Presence at times. IF we are not consistent with how we adjust our amps, then the guitar tone control become a moot point.
As a Tele player I am told I sound exactly the same regardless of which amp I use, but I do know exactly what my guitars can deliver. My Tele's all have very similar if not the same pickups and always have fresh strings. Maybe I'm nuts but when the strings fade I can hear it and it annoys me to no end ! The mids just won't go away.
Back to the Steel, over the years I learned that I prefer a brighter tone with limited MIDS. Most amps can deliver this but not all speakers can. Some speakers are just way too MID crazy for me, so off with their heads . My primary amps and cabinets all have the same speakers, which lean towards bright. They are the Eminence made Fender Gold Labels , 50 watters. These speakers will knock the CxxP out of the MIDS. Certainly these are not the worlds best or most popular speakers, but man are they consistent, amp to amp, cabinet to cabinet.
When I was using a Nashville 112, I stuck one of those speakers in the amp and it was NIGHT AND DAY difference. The heavy mids fell off the planet.
Major point for me, I don't acquire anything ( for years now) because someone else may use it and sound pretty good. Amps, speakers, pickups etc... I've been thru dozens of brands of Tele pickups and always end up back whare I started . With the Steel, I do prefer single coils but only use Humbuckers, as I don't want to fight any stage or room noises, so I adjusted to H Buckers.
Moral to the story, I know what I want to hear , I know exactly what I want to sound like and my gear is set to deliver.
For me, the rule of thumb is fresh strings, ( not dead) and amps/speakers that are capable to deliver what I am looking for consistently. But it all starts with knowing what I want to sound like.
Oh and it didn't happen overnight either.
So what tone do you hear in your head and want your gear to reproduce ? Because in my tiny world, that's where it begins. You know what you want, now, can your gear deliver ? If not, now its "WHY NOT " ?
Speaking for me and only me, my Steel tone doesn't only come from my hands, it comes from reasonably fresh strings , PUPS and speakers that are not MIDRANGE strong.
Last edited by Tony Prior on 18 Sep 2023 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 8 and Pro Tools 12
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 8 years
I think tone is at least 50.% in the hands & technique, however, last month I got a TC Furlong Sesh 400 pre/àmp + a Ganz Straight-Ahead power amp, which vastly improved my Emmons LeGrande’s tone. The almost perfect pairing of these two devices, has made my playing more relaxed, such that, my technique, inspiration & enjoyment have noticeably increased.
I initially tried the Sesh with multiple other power amp sections (e.g. Peavey, Telonics, Fender) but introducing the Ganz amp into the equation, has really brought out that “Emmonsy”sound out of my guitar.
I’m starting to feel like it’s my job to steer the discussion back to Jerry’s question in the OP. So, here goes again.
When somebody says “tone is in the hands”, what do you think they’re talking about? The question is not about whether you believe it or not.
I think it’s okay to say the hands have 25%, or 50%, or 75%, to do with a player’s tone. But then what is the explanation? If you believe it’s 0%, then the challenge is obvious - explain how good tone can be produced without your hands.
A few things can be gleaned from this discussion. Players view the word "tone" differently. Some think tone is the player expression and technique and describe the electronic and mechanical characteristics as "sound".
I tend to view it all as "tone" encompassing all the above.
I posted due to some comments made by some players to others who ask questions concerning amp settings, speaker types, fx use etc.
I just don't think "learn to play better" is the answer or very helpful, nor relevant to their gear questions.
It was just my admittedly smarta** way of stating to those people that say tone is all in the hands...prove it ... instead of just making critical and condescending remarks to players that really do want to improve their sound through electronic equipment.
Many good points in general made in this topic that hopefully many folks will find helpful whether directly or indirectly.
Jerry Overstreet wrote:A few things can be gleaned from this discussion. Players view the word "tone" differently. Some think tone is the player expression and technique and describe the electronic and mechanical characteristics as "sound".
I tend to view it all as "tone" encompassing all the above.
I posted due to some comments made by some players to others who ask questions concerning amp settings, speaker types, fx use etc.
I just don't think "learn to play better" is the answer or very helpful, nor relevant to their gear questions.
It was just my admittedly smarta** way of stating to those people that say tone is all in the hands...prove it ... instead of just making critical and condescending remarks to players that really do want to improve their sound through electronic equipment.
Many good points in general made in this topic that hopefully many folks will find helpful whether directly or indirectly.
I get where you're coming from. It not just in the hands holding the bar and the picks. Those same hands adjust their amps, effects, etc... However, I've said it before, good players always sound good. They adjust their gear to achieve the sound they want.
A strange occurrence I have noticed often. I many times find the sound from my guitar doesn't suit me and I reach for the eq. Finally I give up and leave it alone and play. I can go back later and listen to some of the recordings and I think I sound pretty good. I cannot help but wonder, is that me on the break or someone else? Mood, surroundings, and personal hearing has the largest effect on tone than almost anything. .. in my opinion.
Here's a thought... in tone terms, your hands say what you CAN do. Your gear says what you CANNOT do.
I'm a baby steeler, but I've been playing guitar for an awful long time, and put a lot of work into my tone. I can pick up any random guitar, no matter how poor quality or badly set up it is, and make it sound really good. But give me a really fine guitar that suits the way I play, and I will sound much, much better, even playing the same thing. Now take a really bad guitarist. Give them the same guitars. They'll sound bad on both. A fine guitar won't solve the limitations of their hands, their ears, their knowledge.
I have two "gigging" acoustics, both superb instruments, but very different - a Mossman, and a Lowden. The Mossman is basically like a Martin D28, a big rosewood dreadnought. It sounds thick, full, and dry, and likes being played hard. Pounding chords on the low strings, it just hums. The Lowden is a cedar/mahogany jumbo clearly designed for delicate fingerstyle playing. It's bright, "wet", and has amazing clarity and note separation. But it doesn't like being strummed hard, which makes it sound shrill and strained. So there's a lot of stuff that sounds great on the Lowden but a bit muffled on the Mossman, and stuff that sounds great on the Moassman but shrill on the Lowden. Put them in the hands of a different but very good player, and you'll get different reactions and sounds, because each guitar has different limitations, which may or may not conflict with the player's style and tone.
So getting a really great tone, something that makes you feel happy and inspired, takes work for both hands and gear selection. But it starts with understanding what it is you want to hear, what you want to sound like. Tone is in the mind, more than the hands or the gear! So if you're unhappy with your tone, start with "Well, what do I WANT to sound like?" And "Not like this" isn't a good enough answer, not if you want to be better. And if your hands aren't cooperating with what you hear in your head, get a lesson or three with a pro who can help debug your hands and get you on track.
I find it very helpful myself to study the masters (I've done this for ages as an artist, not just in pedal steel, but in writing, photography, etc). Find those records that make you go "I want to sound like that!" Note their gear choices and their playing style. For me, I've been listening obsessively to that YouTube video of Big Jim Murphy with Redd Volkaert at the Austin airport. That TONE! So big and round. Everything that needs to be there, nothing that doesn't. And Buddy Cage with the New Riders of the Purple Sage (and Jerry Garcia before him)! That's the sound of a big loud Fender amp on the verge of overdriving. Now THAT is a tone clue; something I can use. So I play a Fender amp, not a Peavey, and I'm closer. And I hear Big Jim Murphy make those big, thick-sounding low chords on C6, and it's a tone clue - I can't get that on plain ol' E9 and need lower pitched strings.
And it all pays off. I've only been playing about five months now, but I already got lots of complements on my tone from golden-eared musician friends that I trust. The ZB D-10 and the Fender amp and the little Caroline reverb pedal all give me plenty of headroom in the direction I want to go, and I'm going in the right direction. So the improvement to be had now isn't in my gear, it's in my hands and my head - better picking and muting, better chord knowledge and note choices.
I don’t believe in pixie dust, but I believe in magic.
1967 ZB D-10
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders
Great topic, I think for me, ground zero of tone starts with the confidence in my playing ability and the music I may be presented with at any given time. Whether its fast blue grass, rock and roll or Texas shuffles, I know I got what it takes to cover these. Let the amp and FOH do the rest.
kevin ryan wrote:Great topic, I think for me, ground zero of tone starts with the confidence in my playing ability and the music I may be presented with at any given time. Whether it’s fast blue grass, rock and roll or Texas shuffles, I know I got what it takes to cover these. Let the amp and FOH do the rest.
Interesting response. I think the reverse is true also - when your tone is good, you are inspired to play and make the kind of music you know you are capable of making. The adverse is also true - when your tone is not quite where you want it, the challenge is to dig down deep in your musicianship and try to salvage something from your sound that will show respect for the song, the people you are playing it with, and the audience. That’s when you are almost totally reliant on your hands and your heart.
And regarding the "Tone is in the hands" comments, let us not forget that hands do more than just play the guitar. Hands also adjust the guitar, tune it, and set the controls on the amp. Put politely as I can, "operator error" is still the major cause of problems and shortcomings in tone and tuning.
There is so much tonal variety depending on how close to the bridge one picks. Most of the "chicken picking" is closer to the bridge, whereas playing further away from it gives a richer tone.
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
The problem is you want a discussion of something you know to be untrue.
As I agree that the statement is a crock, it'd difficult to refute Te only thing you can do with the hands is play cleanly and accurately. Good equipment helps you refine those details.
The exception - the late Jeff Beck (RIP), who used a slide at times. But slide or not, he "pulled" notes out of instruments that simply din't exist. He did the impossible. He was transporting them to us from another universe
Option 1. Tone is in proper use of your gear, practice, and playing with skill and authority.
Option 2. Channel Jeff Beck
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
What Jeff Newman taught about the picking hand: Lay the hand on the strings in Karate chop position, then curl the hand around as if grasping an egg. Buddy's hand is like that.
After hearing/seeing dozens of steelers at Scotty's and a couple of dozen players in Hawaii, I reduced right hand position to two basic styles of playing. I call some of these players"Flathanders". Wally Murphy and Doug Jernigan, to some degree, are two players that immediately come to mind.
I think the tone can be lacking at times with flathand playing.
In these cases, the tone is definitely in the hands.
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
Karate chop, grab the egg, and the roll the hand over about 45° towards the headstock. That’s how I see Buddy’s RH position.
“Tone is all in the hands”… Does anyone honestly believe that? Not me. You might need a great jockey to win the Kentucky Derby, but the horse is pretty dang important too.
