C6-sounding jazz extensions on E9?

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 10 Dec 2003 8:23 am

I know entire books have been written on this probably, but just looking for a few "nutshell" tips... Forgive me if I'm shooting for the moon here...

I'm getting myself into a potentially hairy improv situation coming up soon and was looking for a couple ways to imply jazz sounds on E9. My main approach right now is to use the D lever and make string 10 the root - the cool, basic 6th sound, with B pedal lending the flat 7th... Other 7th chord voicings I'm pretty comfortable with... Basic ii/V substitution to get the 9th chord I'm shaky but somewhat OK with.

What are your tips for getting other basic jazzy sounds on E9?

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 10 Dec 2003 8:38 am

There's alot of things you can do. A big one is to push A&B pedals with the 9th string as the root. On the 3rd fret, it's an FMaj7. It's also a Dmin9 (no root). Then when you release the B pedal you get a nice G13th. That's a great easy way to play a IIm-V7 progression in the key of C.

More later.

Grant Johnson · Post by **Grant Johnson** » 10 Dec 2003 8:38 am

How about using your LKR lever and playing 6th sounding stuff? Example in E you would play up on the fifth fret and use the bass 10th string as your root note E...
I have been getting some good results with this position and using my B pedal to add some minor 7th "Blue notes"...

Oops! You stated that in your original post. Sorry for the redunancy![This message was edited by Grant Johnson on 10 December 2003 at 08:42 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Dec 2003 9:09 am

Nathan, what kind of improv jazz are you talking about? Old standards, swing, modern and bebop, fusion, avant garde? There are so many kinds.

Some general things that help with jazz on E9 are:

With the AB pedals down you have a 6th tuning with the 6ths on strings 1 and 7. I have a RKV that pulls those two strings to the flatted 7th.

Any minor chord is also a 6th chord. The E lower lever gives you a tuning very similar to C6. The A pedal alone gives a minor tuning that is good for minor blues. You can move these minor/6ths around on a lot of frets you would never expect. The more you learn to use all the ways to get minors, the better you will be at jazz.

The F lever alone gives a diminished chord, and every 4 frets gives a different inversion of the same chord. These are common in older jazz.

Finally, 9th chords are common in jazz. Don't forget that the E9 tuning itself is a 9th chord very similar to the open F9 chord of the C6 neck, especially with the E lower lever.

Still, knowing all this, I can't play much jazz yet. I find it very difficult on steel, which is why I think so many pros get fascinated with it after they have become bored with the standard country stuff. Good luck.

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 10 Dec 2003 9:21 am

Thanks so far, all!

David, this is a open jam with some friends who have a nice every-Wed slot at a new loungey-kinda place... I wouldn't call it jazz so much - kinda ambient funk....sorta what they call "jam band"? I won't be able to get by with my small repertoire of E9 country licks! I'm a passable guitar player in this improv kinda setting, but steel is a different story...

Tony Dingus · Post by **Tony Dingus** » 10 Dec 2003 10:03 am

I've been tinkering around with this tuning some, although it requires retuning 2 strings, 9 & 10. <pre>
------A--B--C--LKR----RKL
1-F#
2-D#-----------------D/C#
3-G#----A
4-E--------F#--Eb
5-B--C#----C#
6-G#----A
7-F#
8-E------------Eb
9-C#-------------------C
10-F#--A-----E </pre>
Using the 2 knee is like having pedals 5 & 6 on the C6 neck. Release the A pedal is like having pedal 8 for the C6 10th string or the 8th string. I only have a single neck
and I'm not planning on buying a double neck.
I might go to this tuning and lower the 9th string C# to B with the C pedal so I can still get that A pedal growl. I worked out the tune Hold It with this tuning and played it at a steel show and some people thought I was playing a double neck or 12 string!
Sorry if I rambled on too long.
Tony[This message was edited by Tony Dingus on 10 December 2003 at 10:07 AM.][This message was edited by b0b on 10 December 2003 at 12:08 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Dec 2003 10:10 am

"Ambient funk" - sounds like the "smooth jazz" I hear on the radio.

I think that, more than chords, you should concentrate on scales in other postions. The major scale at the 2 position, major/minor/seventh at the b3, minor scales at the #5 and b7 positions - these things are very useful in smooth jazz.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 10 Dec 2003 10:21 am

Cool, b0b - thanks for those insights - more of a "modal" mindset, huh? Cool.

I don't know about smooth jazz - the funk kinda deal I'm thinking of is more like Herbie Hancock ("Headhunters" era) or Medeski, Martin, and Wood - extended, hippie jams for lack of better terminology..?

Tony Dingus · Post by **Tony Dingus** » 10 Dec 2003 10:23 am

Here's the first few notes of Hold It

6________0b__3b_2b
7______0____________3__
8____0___________________
9___________________________
10________________________3a---3___

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 10 Dec 2003 11:33 am

Hey Tony - thanks for the tab and the suggestions. I will check that tuning of strings 9 & 10 out soon - when I'm feeling pretty adventurous!

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 10 Dec 2003 11:42 am

Stacking 4ths, top note is the melody, using minor petatonic w/b5. Move the chords around.
<pre>

4/---3--6--8--9--10--13--15--|
5/---3--6--8--9--10--13--15--|
6/---------------------------|
7/---3--6--8--9--10--13--15--|
</pre>

Drew

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www.drewhoward.com

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 10 Dec 2003 1:23 pm

A couple of these voicings might sound like C6 on the E9
<pre>
F#--------------------------------
Eb--------------------------------
G#----3B---4------6----6------5B--
E-----3C---4R-----6----6------5R--
B-----3C---4------6----6L-----5---
G#------------------------or------
F#-----------------------like-----
E------------------------this-----
D---3----4-----6L----6L-----5-----
B---------------------------------</pre>

Bengt Erlandsen

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 10 Dec 2003 3:39 pm

These variations on the same set of strings is also nice to know.

<pre>
D7 Dm7 G9 Ddim G6
F#-------------------------------
Eb----3----3L---3L---3L---3LL----
G#-------------------------------
E-----3C---3C---3C---3R---3------
B--------------------------------
G#----3B---3B---3----3----3------
F#-------------------------------
E--------------------------------
D--------------------------------
B-----3----3----3----3----3------
</pre>

Bengt Erlandsen[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 10 December 2003 at 03:40 PM.]

Donald Davis · Post by **Donald Davis** » 11 Dec 2003 10:14 am

Hey, this is a great topic! I had a lot of fun with Drew's idea of stacked fourths and quickly saw that by transposing the b7th on the 4th string to the octave below on the 8th string you get a 125 triad which is inverted fourths. Going back and fourth on the same fret between the two chords gives a nice effect. Also, there is the built-in suspended chord on strings 10, 8, and 7. A suspended chord is also another inversion of fourths. As an afterthought, I also added the inversion found on strings 1, 4, and 5. I hope this helps. I am really enjoying learning this instrument.
<pre>
1 1
2
3
4 b7 b7
5 4 4 4
6
7 1 1 1
8 b7 b7
9
10 4 </pre>[This message was edited by b0b on 12 December 2003 at 10:57 AM.]

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 11 Dec 2003 2:05 pm

Using string 9 as a root provides lots of new stuff. Randy Beavers sure can C6 on the E9.

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 11 Dec 2003 10:12 pm

Here's a couple C6th sounding chords on E9th. A pretty neat sounding ending chord for jazzy tunes is an aug 11th.
If the song were in C, you could play a C aug 11 by lowering your E strings and pressing the A and B pedal at the 1st fret. Then play strings 8,5,6,1 open(no bar) and 3 open. You could play a shorter version of that at the 2nd fret playing strings 9,6,5 and 4. Use 1/2 "A" pedal or if you have split tuning, you could use a combination of the A pedal and the 1/2 lower on the 5th string. You're omitting the root in this version, but hopefully the bass player will carry that for you.
If you lower the 9th string 1/2 tone, you can get a mellow sounding maj 9th chord by playing string 9,8,6, and 5 at the closed or pedals down position. For example, in the key of C, play those strings at the 3rd fret using only the lever.

Ken
http://home.ipa.net/~kenwill

Ward Wilsey · Post by **Ward Wilsey** » 12 Dec 2003 6:50 am

Nathan,

I was just going to add that my teacher Don Curtis, has a C6 on E9 book available. I haven't looked at it yet, but he's showed me a few things revolving around lowering the e's that have been really cool. Since lowering the E's essentially puts a B6 tuned lap steel in front of you, don't forget about bar slants and good old C6 lap steel licks. Ward

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 12 Dec 2003 6:57 am

The last two years have opened my eyes for some of the possibilities on the E9th tuning. I've learned to build chords off the 9th string both lowered and in it's natural position. My opinion is to not get "position orientated." By this I mean don't just look to build the chord out of the root, 4th, 5th, or 2nd position. It definitely helps to be able to play the chord on the C6th and then find it one note at a time on the E9th neck. What I've found is you can't always play the lowest bass note of the chord like you would on the C6th neck. However if you are playing with a bass player that plays the right notes, he will take care of that anyway. Find the notes that gives the chord its character, like the flat 9, sharp 9, flat 5, etc., and play those. Don't try to play more than 4 notes of the chord, but settle for 3 if you have to, leaving out the root or 5th, unless the 5th is altered.

I listen to alot of piano players. I'm intrigued at the closeness of their chords to each other. Very few parallel jumps of more that a 2nd. Alot of the time the jump is chromatic, with the top note being the same. I'm still shocked at how much is on the E9th tuning with a "student" pedal setup, chord wise.

Something I found, new to me, a few months back is playing a 1 major 7th with an added 6th out of the 6th position with just the B pedal. For instance, F major 6th, 10th fret, B pedal down, play strings 10, 9, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 lowered 1/2, and 1. A nice turn around using this, 10th fret b pedal down, strum 10 and 9 with the thumb and pick 7 and 6. Slide back one fret and let off the b pedal, slide back one more fret to the 8th fret and push pedal b again, then let off the b pedal. Finish with the F chord of your choice. This change has been there all these years, even on a Maverick.

To me the E9th tuning has a prettier sound than the C6th because of its higher pitch, lighter strings, tighter tension. All these mean more sustain and the notes come out clearer and don't run together, especially when your mixed in with a band. [This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 12 December 2003 at 11:06 AM.]

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 12 Dec 2003 7:12 am

Wow, guys - thanks for the nudge in this important direction - more great weekend reading coming up, I see! Using the 9th string as an anchor/jumping off point, the landscape looks and sounds a lot different!

Tony>Drew>Bengt>Don - thanks for the charted-out stuff!

Ken - thanks for the info on the 11th chord!

Ward, thanks for the the note on Don's book...And the "B6 lap" comment - that is good, solid common sense that I tend to forget!

Randy, I have only been playing seriously for about 18 months - but I relate 100% to your comment about not wanting to be "position oriented" - it's one my fears because as a novice it's so natural to fall into visual patterns & "motor memory"...

Because I know I'll never unlock all the possibilities of E9, and that there are so many good ways to imply those rich, jazzy chords - I have committed to stick with my SD10 indefinitely - even though it sure is tempting to jump into C6 when you hear those big, fat sounds in can produce....

[This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 12 December 2003 at 07:15 AM.][This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 12 December 2003 at 08:54 AM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 13 Dec 2003 7:19 am

Bengt's ideas are good. He has replicated the C6 "Nightlife" walk-up. Getting those sounds is one of the reasons why I had 12-string E9 guitar, and why somday I'll get another.

<pre>Ext. E9 12

5/-------6--7--8---
6/---8-------------
7/-------6--7--8---
8/---8L------------
9/-----------------
10/----------------
11/------6--7--8---
12/--8-------------
</pre>

Drew

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www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 26 Dec 2006 3:00 pm

I'm reviving this topic due to recent interest in the perennial "C6 sounds on E9" matter... I'm still nowhere near where I want to be, but the advice I got from Randy, Bengt, and the whole gang on this one has proven to be awesome.

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 26 Dec 2006 5:12 pm

Drew, can you post your complete pedal,and knee set-up on your 12 string E9th?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Dec 2006 6:06 pm

I would try to leave out those 6 chords for anything current and open sounding. It sounds pretty dated and is just as bad as mashing the AB pedals in terms of pegging yourself as a thing that only makes corny sounds.

I would go melodic and textural. I use those big 6 chords for idiomatic gestures only in the new improv stuff. Its like putting a cowboy hat on whatever the music is. And that is not always the right thing to do.

Try to think like a cello player with a better range.

I often find the E9 tuning is a better voice for the new improv music you are talking about. I switch necks back and forth all night on jam band improv gigs.

What I do is sing something in my head along to the music and then I play it as best I can.

Those gigs are usually pretty fun unless you get a slapping bass player or the drummer sucks.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 26 December 2006 at 07:00 PM.]

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 27 Dec 2006 8:00 am

Bob - very good points. This post is 3 yrs. old, so I've definitely wrestled with the genre/idiomatic pitfalls of "that's too country" or "that sounds Hawaiian"...!!... and my phrasing and placement have improved some -- well, a little!

The context of the jam/funk gig wasn't the best place to bring up "C6 on E9"... Looking back on it, I should've just asked for ideas on sounding less country!

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 27 Dec 2006 8:12 am

I had a sweet Fessy Ext E9 12, 5p 5k, Truetone pickup. After messing around with C6 for years, in 2005 I got the C6 bug bad and traded it straight up for a Derby D-10. I just wasn't going to get what I wanted out of an extended E9 set-up.

Bob Hoffnar is right, for modern sounds stay away from 6th chords and AB pedal mashing.

I would also add a pull that drops the the high B to an A, that gets you a nice half-step interval. I maj/maj7 and I min sus 2.

cheers,
Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Red guitars sound better!