Do All Emmon's Push Pull have "that sound?"

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 12 Mar 2005 2:32 pm

Yes.

------------------
Thanks,
Wayne Baker
Emmons Legrande d-10, w/8&5, Emmons S10 p/p
w/3&4 Nashville 400, Boss DD3.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 13 Mar 2005 3:20 am

The point of these discussions is to debate about THIS particular guitar MINUS other factors that are important, like the amp, cords, effects AND hands. These factors have to be ruled out in a discussion about the guitar itself, I believe, otherwise it becomes muddied.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Mar 2005 5:13 am

I'm with Al, Bob, Bob, and Jody. Too much wonderful sounding music has been played on other guitars to say that only one brand "has the sound".

Take the player out of the equation? How? Without a player, there is no sound. Same goes for the amp.

I know a hundred players that went out and bought a p/p Emmons to get "that sound". Well, it didn't work. The "sound" still wasn't there, they still don't have it.

So now, if we don't agree with you about "the sound", we don't have "the ear"?

Okay, whatever you say.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Mar 2005 6:42 am

I did a search and found this extensive posting. The main reason I brought it back to life is because I just bought a 1967 p/p Emmons and am anxious to hear "that" sound and I sure hope it isn't in the "hands" or I'll be disappointed.
Erv

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 13 Mar 2005 7:14 am

Ditto's to what Donny said.

I need to correct Bobbe's statement. I am NOT the only session guitarist using dad's guitar. Bouton, Johnson and Randle Curry have been recording with Franklin guitars for several years now. In the 80's and early 90's Rugg and Basore recorded with Franklin guitars. Bruce and Mike both bought Franklin's primarily for their studio gigs. I believe Bruce occasionally goes back and forth between his Emmon's and Franklin for the same reason a guitarist chooses between a telecaster and Les Paul.

ALL steel brands have "that sound" which is distinct unto itself. They DO NOT offer the same tonality.

Guitarists learned many years ago to choose the axe that brings out their best performances and they don't buy into the theory that any single axe has the best sound for every situation. The same is true with Psg's. In spite of what this crowd preaches, the PP doesn't offer a great tone for everything, I know because I owned a killer PP. It has a special tone unique unto itself and if that sound is your cup of tea, owning one is the only way to get it.

Tonal characteristics EQUALLY as special are found on other brands which is probably why you don't see great players (Former PP and Sho-Bud legends) going back to the PP or Sho'Bud's they used 20 years ago, today.

I have learned through experience saying one guitar is the Rolls Royce only means there is a Jaguar, Mercedes, Corvette, BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Lexus, etc yet to drive.

Through the years I have listened to great tonal marriages like Buddy on the Blade, Green on a Sho-Bud, Chalker on his MSA, Brumley on his ZB, Mooney on his Fender. My ears tell me these players have chosen the right axe to deliver their sound.

Paul

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 13 Mar 2005 7:24 am

For those who are still interested, the secret can now be told: the cut on my first CD where I used the pushpull was indeed, JAVA, as David ("Big Ears") Donald discerned. I wanted the production to be reminiscent of Buddy's "Bundle of Rags", so I went for the pp on that one. Still, hardly anybody could tell the difference vs my Fessenden. Go figure.

By the way, thank you Jody, and others above who've made some nice remarks about my playing. Jody, I certainly recall that day in 1988 when I played my very first steel show and you were so supportive and encouraging. That made a big difference to me in the years that followed, and I've always appreciated your support for a young(er) upstart. I really didn't deserve your praise then but I'm workin' hard to earn it every day.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 13 Mar 2005 7:30 am

Back on topic,

The answer is yes and no.

Yes, they all have the same tonal characteristics. Which is what Bobbe's talking about and I agree with him that they can all be adjusted to growl.

No, Some PP's are more resonate than others and no amount of adjusting can change that.

Main reason, When you build a guitar with a green piece of wood it will never resonate like and older dried out board does. This is the same reason there is a big variation in the old Sho-Bud's. There were periods when Sho-bud could not get aged wood. I suspect the Emmons company had the same problem.

Paul

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 13 Mar 2005 8:10 am

Before anyone gets out their flamethrower, I did not want to edit my above posts. In my haste to be factual, my posts may read a bit confrontational. I promise that was not my intent.

I should have added a smiley face or two. When I said "in spite of what this crowd preaches". I meant that to be a humourous response to those in this thread who say and believe those of us that do not subscribe to their definition of the PP being superior in tone must not have ears to hear the difference. I think of those guys as the hell and brimstone preachers of steel guitar tone.

The truth is I loved my PP for what it was, as I did my Bud's and MSA and I wish I still owned everyone of those guitars. In the above posts I was only clarifying some misconceptions about dad's guitar and its players stated earlier in this thread. Everything else has to do with my personal opinions and assumptions about tone pertaining to ALL guitars and should be taken as such, just a personal opinion.

Hope I didn't offend anyone, especially this PP crowd.

Paul

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 13 Mar 2005 8:27 am

I guess I'd better clarify myself too, now that everybody thinks I'm a PP Nazi. We all grow up musically with a sound in our mind and would love to be able to acheive it. I tried MSA's, Sho-Buds and others to get close to it but it never happened till I got my PP. That made ME happy, but I realize that other people listening to me wouldn't have heard any difference between when I played my Legrande or my PP. I'll even admit that on recordings, the difference is slight, but it's a subtle and personal thing that I FEEL while I'm playing the guitar that gives me inspiration. That's what the secret is, I think, the marriage of the guitar with the image in your mind of what a guitar should sound, look and feel like. True, Paul, you could play any guitar and sound very good on it and probably sound very close to your Franklin on it, but what would YOU feel like playing it? It's a very personal thing.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 13 Mar 2005 9:34 am

I have learned through experience saying one guitar is the Rolls Royce only means there is a Jaguar, Mercedes, Corvette, BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Lexus, etc yet to drive

hey,what about Trabant

the only real push pull vehicle in the auto industry.Doesn`t drive to well,but it`s guaranteed to move if you push it or pull it (with the tractor they got the best results)

Db

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Mar 2005 12:03 pm

Mr. Franklin, thank you for your candid and enlightening comments. We relish your participation here.

I'm just kind of a "flunkie" at this steel guitar stuff. I ain't great, and I ain't famous. Probably never will be. Nonetheless, I've found the same thing (brand loyalties) in most every field where you're buying something to do something. Cars, tools, knives, golf clubs, you name it. There's always someone who's a proponent of something and believes that it's the quickest route to success.

Obviously, opinions of a "nobody" like me will not sway any accomplished, experienced musician. They have been around long enough to know exactly what they want, and they base their decisions on experience, and personal knowledge, not on fad or anyone else's fancy. I usually respond to these these topics that center around "what you need", or "you gotta have this", for the benefit of the new or inexperienced players. They are the ones who might just believe there's "magic" in a _________ (fill in your own favorite product), or that there's some quick route to a great sound. There isn't. If you don't have the years of experience under your belt, no piece of equipment made is going to make up for your lack of style, finesse, or know how.

I wish that wasn't so. I wish there was something that any of us could just buy, use, and be guaranteed a better sound.

But there isn't.

Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 26 Mar 2006 5:51 am

Nan my wife has a good ear for sound better than I have, I bought a different guitar than a Sho-bud a while back, the guitar was beautiful not a mark on, show room.The first note I played on it she did not like the sound, she said it does not sound like you, it sounds bad.
I have played the same D10 Professional for 30 years, I have never played another guitar she likes the sound of. So i had to trade the axe off for a sho-bud Pro 1 and she is now a happy camper with it.
I love my buds, but I played Nick Reeds single 10 PP and got hooked!

Someday I've got to own one myelf. Bobbe I'll come see you when that day comes,
I can not say which guitar is better or best from the rest, but I love all the sounds I have heard from my heroes playing steel guitar. Russ you would sound great on any guitar, John,JImmy Powel,LLoyd, I love them all.
At the next show Clinton Opry I go to I will close my eyes and try to tell the sound I hear, from what brand guitar and record the show, then listen to each player and try to tell what guitar I hear from the sound of it.
Randy Beavers a while back asked who could tell what guitar he was playing. I think most of us could not tell the difference
I think he was playing a Zum and a PP.

ernie [This message was edited by Ernest Cawby on 02 April 2006 at 07:59 AM.]

Mickey Lawson · Post by **Mickey Lawson** » 26 Mar 2006 6:35 am

Emmons p/p sound better because they use shock absorber springs on the pull-rods. Smooth start and finish, on the tone changes.

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 26 Mar 2006 9:14 am

Yeah, I didn't think Ernie was gonna let me take my little S-10 home. . .ha ha ha!
I know P/P's are NOT for everybody, but I've played em so long, I just don't like anything else. Here's my two D-10's!

of course, the black one sounds the best

But don't they always![This message was edited by Nick Reed on 02 April 2006 at 08:03 AM.]

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 26 Mar 2006 4:49 pm

Lots of views and opinions here. Here's mine. I believe each Psg has a personality. It's up to the player to bring it out in each guitar. I like all brands of guitars, as well as all players. I'm a Carter and a p/p owner/player. Both are great guitars but different. I'd be just as happy playing a MSA,Franklin,Zumsteel or whatever. I don't care as long it stays in tune and gives me what I'm looking for. If the right player comes along with the right amount of money then they can buy what I'm playing and I'll replace it with another one. I believe all of the modern guitars are equal as are the older p/p's, if there adjusted correctly and cared for. By the way PF, you sounded great at the Texas steel show! And, BS, thanks for the E66's. The 78' p/p sounds really good with them!

James Lombard · Post by **James Lombard** » 26 Mar 2006 11:14 pm

I own two P/P's, one,a'76 Rosewood mica D-12 8x5 that I bought new, and an early 80's Black mica D-10, 10x10 built by Jimmie Crawford, which I bought from the original owner. The D-12 has always had a terrific sound, but the D-10 cuts it right off at the knees.(no pun intended)It has the most even timbre across the strings from high to low of ANY guitar I've heard. The pickups are wound to 20k on both necks, and it delivers "that" sound. There is a difference, at least between my two guitars. I don't believe the color has anything to do with it, but something is lacking in the twelve that the ten has in spades.

Brett Cookingham · Post by **Brett Cookingham** » 22 Dec 2006 4:31 pm

Looking back on this post, now that I have a couple of Push Pulls, all I can say is that I nolonger need to use a tuner to be in tune! and I'm actually in tune now. Before, withe tha All Pull, I was always tinkering with the tuner and could never get it to sweeten up. Push Pulls are easy and just plain SWEET !!!
Try these links below. My music lives there.
http://www.myspace.com/brettcookingham
http://www.jukeboxalive.com/audio_play_offsite.php?mid=644456&skin=644322

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 23 Dec 2006 5:50 pm

deleted

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 24 Dec 2006 2:05 am

Funny...Paul Franklin said he would like to have back each of the guitars he had let go...Emmons, Bud's, MSA...and I wish I could have a Franklin psg.

I thought my 1974 D-10 Emmons PP sounded really good until I got my 1978 S-10 Emmons PP...the smaller guitar (to me) sounds better, it also has alum neck. It has more depth and a much better tone than my D-10. The S-10 tends to have a glassey high end, mid-range bell like tone and a very clean low end that really cuts through and it's like this no mater what amp I play with it including; a PV Session 400, Nashville 400, Evans and a Fender Twin.

Does it have "that sound" I don't know...maybe if Buddy Emmons played it a couple of minutes he could tell me?

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 24 Dec 2006 6:31 pm

I just had a 68 D-10 Satin Rosewood Emmons fall into my hands. The C-6th neck still had the original strings on it. the front neck has been played some, not a lot. the guitar is so smooth to play and the sound is incredible. The knees are all wrong for me but it is, as it was ordered at the factory.
I will get it straightened out soon and it will be my main gourd. I have a 95 Mullen D-10 that sounds awesome to me.
I also have A D-10 MCI that was BE'S and it has Lawrence 705's on it and you can almost hear the bells in that one too.
This is my fifth P/P and they were all good but this one is great. I always play thru a Evans SE 200, A DD/3 delay , Black Box and Hilton pedal. Works for me...

Old Bud.

Old Bud

Gordon Sharp · Post by **Gordon Sharp** » 25 Dec 2006 11:41 am

I guess I will be the ruination of p.p when I get my 67pp back from B.Seymor,whether it be black,blue,brown,sorry all you p.p players. Gordon Sharp once a hacker allways a hacker.Kingston,Tenn.

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 26 Dec 2006 2:20 pm

Im still looking foreward to my first pro model, and after taking in lots of great feedback, i feel to be leaning just slightly toward the 'psychological satisfaction' that a push/pull would bring. But...(and sorry if this has been answered) as far as customizing your copedent changes, and other mechanical maintenance goes, is a push/pull going to be more of a problem than an all/pull ? Thx

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 26 Dec 2006 5:15 pm

If you change your setup alot then, yes... it would be more of a hassle. If you don't, then, no... a well set-up and adjusted p/p shouldn't be any more trouble than an all-pull.

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 27 Dec 2006 5:56 pm

When Jim put Tommy Whites P/P for sale on the Forum, I responded post haste and made the buy. Jim delivered it to Phoenix on one of his business trips. I met him at Skyharbor and took delivery of that world renown E9 video Black Beauty. I was anticipating taking a playing gig and decided this had the sound, the look and what it needed to make me look and sound like I could carry the mail.
Alas, I decided not to take the job and it sits in our spare bedroom, looking lonesome. My regular ax is a D-11 and need that extra string for my C6 playing, which I couldn't do without. Someday, someone may talk me out of Tommy's used goods.