Do All Emmon's Push Pull have "that sound?"

Bruce W Heffner · Post by **Bruce W Heffner** » 21 Jun 2003 4:04 am

My friend Tommy Vollmer and I were having a discussion on how many hits were recorded with "the sound guitar" verses the other brands. We think "the sound" wins. What do you guys think? By the way, I am sure ShoBud may be running close. What other brands are close?

Bruce W

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www.pedalsteel.net

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 21 Jun 2003 4:42 am

Between Lloyd Green and Pete Drake alone, I'd have to think that Sho~Bud was on the most.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Lem

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Jun 2003 5:01 am

Desifinado does seem to have a bit different sound, but that could be just eq.
"Someday Soon" has a nice big warm sound... mebe that one. I think it's the more liekly candidate, but I have only listened in the car and not the studio monitors.
It's not the Israeli Anthem which is a wonderful cut.

I haven't listened for a different steel. I will now on the way to the gig tonight.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 June 2003 at 07:35 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 21 Jun 2003 5:10 am

Cohen must be out of town. I know which track it is, and neither of you guessed it.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 21 Jun 2003 6:15 am

This is obvious, but I'll say it anyway - it's all about what YOU hear as you're playing. If a guitar sounds great to you, then you'll play with more confidence, but you'll still sound like you.

I did a session years ago with Albert Lee. The producer asked him to play his old Gibson 'Black Beauty' Les Paul on a couple of tracks, rather than the Tele - listening to those songs years later, neither of us could recall which songs were done with the Gibson. We certainly couldn't tell the difference.

The confusion surrounding Jim's tracks would seem to bear this out.

(I'd still like to have that ex-TW p/p, though!!!!)

RR

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Jun 2003 7:03 am

I ain't tellin'!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Jun 2003 8:32 am

I think it's "Someday Soon", not because of the tone, but in tribute to the Big E. I just have a hunch that Jimbeaux would do that.

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David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Jun 2003 1:35 pm

Gotta Be Java... the only one that sounds quite different. And it made me think of the one I played last week.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 June 2003 at 02:37 PM.]

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 22 Jun 2003 12:34 pm

Well I've set and watched you guys on this post for almost 2 weeks now and have remained silent. But now I'm going to speak my peace. I've heard "THAT SOUND" you guys are talking about on records, CD's and with other players other than myself. When I heard it, the sound came from an Emmons P/P guitar. However, I feel a combination of factors are involved here like strings, pick-up winding, wood VS aluminum necks, etc. But I still think alot of it is in the players right-hand action. Touch, feel, experience with blocking, cupping the hand properly, and the ways strings are picked is all an ART (A LEARNED ART!). It has to be developed over years & years of practice and playing time to get to this point. I myself, have not reached this stage and probably never will on any guitar whether P/P or all-pull. I own (2)'66 bolt-on P\P's and (1)'71 Fatback P/P. All 3 have there own distinct tone. They're good tones, but each one is different sounding. So, I'd like to say that I feel much of the "THAT SOUND" you guys are referring to is accomplished by the player, and not all by the Guitar. Just my $0.02 worth. Nick

'66 Emmons black D-10 P/P
'66 Emmons black S-10 P/P
'71 Emmons rosewood D-10 P/P

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 22 Jun 2003 1:24 pm

I also have a 66 D-10 but I put BL 710's in it for recording purposes. I've been playing a 71 birdseye maple body P/P with alluminum necks with original single coils on the bandstand. The single coils give it a lot more of "that sound" and I just like them better anyway. The 710's don't hum like the single coils do but I'm putting the single coils back in as soon as I find my soldering gun. I consider my ear to be as good as any but I'm not sure I could tell which tune on Jims CD has the P/P either. I haven't heard the album yet either so maybe I could and maybe not. I had an Emmons all-pull Legrande II for a couple of years and sometimes with the BL-710's it kind of growled or cut through with that metallic kind of tone I would call the distinctive Emmons tone but only when I really picked the strings hard and if they were fairly new. It's all relative and very hard to describe but I think we can all for the most part agree that the Emmons P/P guitars have a distinction about them like no other guitar. Putting our finger on just what it is that makes it sound the way it does is once again proving to be allusive. Like I said before, I've heard a few and only a few of these guitars that I wouldn't own because of the tone. The Legrande played as good as any guitar I've owned but I traded it for the 66 D-10. I'm after the tone and I'll deal with making it play the way I want it to. I'll take the older guitar hands down every time. The pedals are just a tad harder but the knees are much smoother and the tone is to die for no matter what I play it through.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 Jun 2003 6:25 pm

Do All Emmon's Push Pull have "that sound?"

Yeah, but if you oil them once in awhile, it'll go away.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 22 June 2003 at 07:25 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 22 Jun 2003 7:19 pm

Oil won't fix that noise Donny!

Bobbe,

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 23 Jun 2003 12:08 am

Oil won't do it, but some duck fat might help a bit.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 23 Jun 2003 3:36 am

Ok so it's duck fat,
not that chicken' somethin' or other
it's good to be here

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 11 Mar 2005 1:08 pm

CrowBear,
How many times do I have to tell you! It's SARDINE oil: here kitty, kitty.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 11 Mar 2005 3:18 pm

In the not so distant future, I may give you a "conundrum" worse than Jim's crossword puzzels. My new CD will have several songs that I used my old '67 push-pull on.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 11 Mar 2005 4:02 pm

And another old thread is made new again!

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 11 Mar 2005 4:12 pm

Since the thread reappeared:

My 74 fatback has "that sound" in a huge way, but only when the stops on the guitar are properly aligned with each other.

I was playing the guitar recently with the pedals a little off in places (like the A+F combo), and even though I correct intonation with a little bit of bar slant, the sound was leaving me unimpressed.

I just spent two hours retuning the pedals on the guitar and the guitar came alive in a big big way. I'd venture to say that intonation will have a lot to do with your push/pull having "that sound." The strings have to produce consonant sounds or it will obscure the rich harmonics of the instrument. For some reason (and feel free to dispute this) bar slanting does not produce the same effect, even if you sit there and get it just right and perfectly in tune. It's missing that magic.

Now that The GOAT is well tempered, I am once again certain that I own the finest sounding steel guitar ever made. I mean black album good.

Oh, and it goes without saying that you will only achieve the sound if you tune by ear instead of a tuner. Flame on!

Burton Lee
Denton, TX

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 11 Mar 2005 6:54 pm

Think Brumley would have sounded better on a P/P??. Or Rusty? or Sneaky?.. Mooney? Maurice?? how about Curly..or Lloyd??... Doug J??.. If Jerry played a P/P on "Teach".. maybe it would have become a well known song!!.. Maybe Paul would get a little more work if he went to a P/P.. Or If Robert Randolph played one, there would be more threads about him on this forum... c'mon guys.. face it .. they're ALL good sounding. ALL steels are capabable of incredible sound in the right hands with the right eq/amp/recording technique... Believe it or not, according to my STEEL PLAYING friends, my "best sounding " steel of all time was a PLYWOOD MSA with THREE!! pickups hacked into it. I got more compliments on the tone of that beat up old clunker guitar from other steel guitarists, than ANY other guitar I ever owned.. One steel player I know came to see me play several years back, and was disappointed that I had my ProIII on the gig.. he told me to leave it home next time and bring the MSA... Oh by the way, he played an Emmons... I'll tell you what they say over at the guitar forum on Harmony Central... and it IS the truth.. "TONE IS IN THE HANDS"... let me just add this.. TONE IS IN THE HEART... and the head too.. The factory it was made in is secondary. IMHO ..... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 11 March 2005 at 06:55 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 11 March 2005 at 09:51 PM.]

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 11 Mar 2005 7:09 pm

When Jimi Hendrix played that Gibson V-shaped guitar it just wasn't his sound. It lacked his "tone".

Using a 6-string analogy, I have always thought that a Push-Pull sounded like a Fender Strat and an All-Pull sounded like a Gibson Les Paul.

Both guitars sound good, just different.

The hands are definitely required to bring out the tone in both.

It would be just plain boring if everybody played the same kind of guitar with the same kind of tone.

Terry

Al Carmichael · Post by **Al Carmichael** » 11 Mar 2005 11:15 pm

I had a small revelation one night. The steel player in my band, who played an Emmons (because it had THAT sound) had a mutual friend come up to sit in for a set. The guy sitting in makes his living playing steel and has played with many successful recording and touring acts. He hangs out here too, but I won't drop his name to respect his privacy.

He comes up, puts on his picks and sits down to play. Didn't adjust the amp or any effects. When we started playing, his tone was totally different than our steel guy. It was awesome--just soared. The funny thing was, he sounded just like he did on the records he played on--and he doesn't play an Emmons. My take was that it was his skill, technique and knowledge that made that guitar sing. A master imposes his own sound on any guitar he plays. Yes, they may all sound different, and an Emmons push pull may be the best sounding of all of them, but the heart, soul and hands of the player is a BIG factor in the final result.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 12 Mar 2005 11:11 am

Everybody talks about the influence of the hands in the equation but does anybody ever take into account your EARS in the whole picture? If you can't hear the difference between someone playing a PP, then it's a moot point. There is also the feeling one gets while playing a PP. My take on it is, as you start punching a PP harder it punches back in a beautiful and tonefull way, especially past the 12th. fret. Instead of getting screechy, it sings. That is why people go thru the other negative aspects of the guitar, like extra travel and difficult setup, cause they're tone junkies.

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 12 Mar 2005 12:53 pm

It's just like cooking. Ingredients aren't going to teach you how to cook, but even the most excellent chef can only work with the ingredients they have.

The p/p has a harmonic richness to the sound that is not present in all-pull guitars, as fine as they may be. That richness doesn't mean you're a better player, it's just the raw material you choose to work with as a player.

It'll sound different under different hands, and it's not going to alter the sound of anyone's technique. If you buy one and spend a lot of time discovering the colorful sounds it can make, and then practice making those sounds on demand, you will be greatly rewarded. That is true for any guitar, really.

Burton

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 12 Mar 2005 2:07 pm

Sorry Burton my friend, I don't buy it.. tone IS subjective...If a Bud,ZB,MSA,Carter,Williams,GFI,Franklin, Fessenden or ANY good steel doesn't "have it" above the 12th fret, its time to change the strings... or the amp, or the PLAYER!!

Too much great music with GREAT sounding steel guitar by too many great players to say that only Emmons P/P guitars have "that sound" .. I'll ask the same question that our lovely host b0b asked earlier.. "what is THAT sound"??... bob

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 12 Mar 2005 2:14 pm

Jim Cohen sounds great on anything he plays
push pull or not.He has the hands and the skill to make any brand guitar sound GREAT.

Like many of you I am a fan of Jim's as well and I remember back in 88 he played for the PSGA and I told him back then he had what it takes. It it all came true. He's a great talent.

Thanks.