Do All Emmon's Push Pull have "that sound?"

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 8 Jun 2003 5:36 pm

I started out in 1969 with a 1968 Emmons Push Pull. Didn't know what I had, so looking back, I foolishly sold it. Still remember that sound though. If I were to buy another Emmons Push Pull with an original pick-up, what are the chances that it would have "that sound" and sustain? Would 10 or 12 string matter? What about single neck vs. double neck? What about a single neck on a double frame? Does any of these factors play into the sound? I know.... before anybody says it, it's gotta be black!..... yeah, right if you say so. Do I just have to hear the guitar to know or can I just assume it will have "that Emmons PP sound"if I buy one without trying it out?

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 8 Jun 2003 5:38 pm

Mine didn't.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 8 Jun 2003 5:44 pm

Like all guitars, there are some that are better than others. I have never personally played one that I wouldn't be happy to play gigs on, but I understand that some folks have. I've probably played at least 20 or 30 different push-pulls over the past 30 years and most were dynamite sounding guitars. Many were badly out of adjustment. I think there's more tone in that design than any other ever manufactured, but not all of them are equal.

I play a push-pull 12-string and it's the best sounding 12-string I've ever played. Your mileage may vary.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Jun 2003 6:51 pm

Mine didn't either.]

carl

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 8 Jun 2003 6:53 pm

Nor did mine. Close, though.

Tom Vollmer · Post by **Tom Vollmer** » 8 Jun 2003 6:57 pm

I am on my third black push pull Emmons since 1965 and have not heard any other steel that sounds better.A push pull Emmons thru a Webb or Evans amp is unbeatable in my rating.

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 8 Jun 2003 7:59 pm

Like so many steel players,I too wanted "that sound". And, like many,I played several PP's that were for sale,in hopes of finding one with THE SOUND but none of them had it. For a while I simply convinced myself that it was just me;that I simply didn't have the right touch...then one day I sat down at one that had IT. Of course it wasn't for sale and the owner wouldn't even consider parting with it. Such has been my luck. But I can say that there have also been some modern All-Pull Emmons steels made which also have "that sound". A good friend,and fellow Forumite,RON PRESTON,has one. Ron was a former Emmons employee,and made sure that the most meticulous care possible was put into the building of his personal instrument. The extra work and care paid off for him in "Tone to the bone." I would call RON a lucky son-of-a-gun,but luck had little to do with it. Sometimes hard work can do an awful lot to compensate for luck. Most any steel guitar manufacturer will tell you,though, that no matter how hard they try to be consistent in the manufacturing process,some instruments simply sound better than others. There are simply too many uncontrolable variables,such as wood grain,even in a plywood body. I guess thats what makes an instrument such a personal thing;they are all different,just like us!
~~W.C.~~

Brett Cookingham · Post by **Brett Cookingham** » 8 Jun 2003 8:07 pm

Why do I bother?[This message was edited by Brett Cookingham on 08 June 2003 at 10:29 PM.]

Dave Horch · Post by **Dave Horch** » 8 Jun 2003 8:48 pm

My experience at a somewhat local steel shop which has lots of Emmons P/P's is that you need to play it to make yourself happy, or not. Get your hands on the guitar.

While I was there one day for a lesson, a guy came into the shop to buy a p/p, and played several ones that he thought he might like. He found one that he loved. He said, "This one's GOT IT all the way up the neck!!".

He traveled a long distance to play the guitars, and he left with a "good one", in his opinion, and so he's happy.

IMO/ check it out in person.

Best, -Dave[This message was edited by Dave Horch on 08 June 2003 at 09:52 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Jun 2003 9:35 pm

What is "that sound"???

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Jun 2003 2:48 am

no

b0b, are you starting one of those write the song threads?

"You gotta stop children'

What's that sound...

Everybody look whats goin' down...."

I think Stephen already wrote it..
but I could be wrong...

tp ( not Tony Palmer )

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 9 Jun 2003 4:13 am

"That sound" can only be found on the old Emmons p/p guitars to put it plainly. I went through the all pull thing thinking I wanted a newer more modern guitar and after about 5 different guitars and no telling how much money I'm back to playing the Emmons p/p. The all pull players who haven't played one to really get that sound in their head don't realize what they're missing. Kind of like never having glasses and needing them and when you do get them you suddenly see the difference. They all don't have that distinctive sound but most do that I've played. The thing about it is with the right mechanic you can make a p/p do just about everything any all pull guitar can do. It may not drop the 6th string down 2 1/2 tones but it pretty much covers the bases for anything out there. I learned my lesson the hard way and I won't be without one from now on.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 9 Jun 2003 4:32 am

Bobby - "that sound" has to be a specific emphasis of certain tones and overtones that make a steel sound like what is commonly defined as "great tone" - what else could it be? The Buddy-God has said he thinks that the overall weight of a steel has a lot to do with tone, not a good point for those of us in the Save-Our-Spine Coalition.

Ole Dantoft · Post by **Ole Dantoft** » 9 Jun 2003 5:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
It may not drop the 6th string down 2 1/2 tones but it ....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Frank,
The great BLACK

p/p you sold me HAD that change on it when I got it and still has and it works flawlessly !

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Ole

My homepage !

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 Jun 2003 6:03 am

"That sound" can be heard on Buddy Emmons black album and the two set album made at the ISGC in 1977. Pay particular attention to Blue Jade and Mansion on the Hill.

Aslo listen to the first few bars of "Once Upon a Time in the West".

Sure much of this sound is from Buddy, but a great deal is from those incredible P/P's.

NO other sound in the world can touch it in my opinion. My P/P did NOT have it, UNTIL I changed PU's after I had sold it before shipping it. Broke my heart. So from 1969 til1 1988 it did not have it. The last day I owned it I found out what everyone was alking about. I wanted to back out of the deal. But a deal ia a deal.

The next time I heard it was a student bought a single neck P/P. And the moment I hit the first note, there it was. The best way and the only way I know how to describe it is,

"It is a bell like sound" and one perceives it could sustain forever,

carl

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 9 Jun 2003 6:36 am

Carl, what was the pickup that gave yours that sound? And what was the pickup that didn't? I'm asking because I am fixing up a beautiful red Emmons p/p S12 and am about to get a new pickup for it. The old single coil one that came on it is just too noisy on the sustains.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 9 Jun 2003 6:55 am

There is no reason that ANY P-P Emmons can't have "That Sound". And it's not the pickup.

Bobbe[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:17 PM.]

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 9 Jun 2003 7:20 am

...Tom Vollmer!!! I never thought I'd see the day...what happened, did an airplane fly over and drop a computer on your house!Welcome to the forum. I no longer own the S-10 p/p that you worked on for me...it needed work, but boy did it have That Sound...I just bought an 8 & 7 rosewood p/p from Buck Dilly, and it definately has That Sound, especially with the Vibrosonic Reberb with EVM that I also just got...it is a beautiful musical instrument...

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 9 Jun 2003 10:24 am

So, according to BS, ALL Emmons guitars have "that sound", but some of them have lost it. And BS knows how to put it back. Did I get that right?
Bobbe, how much do you charge to put it back?
And are there any guarantees?

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Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 Jun 2003 11:05 am

Dear Bobbe,

I love you man, but I am telling you that my '69 P/P did not have the sound. On the last day I owned it I decided to put a set of PU's in that I had laying around for a long time. The originals were 14.5K. The ones I installed were 19K. Both single coil Emmons' PU's.

I never dreamed that I could have the sound by simply replacing the PU's. So needless to say I could have kicked myself for not trying it years earlier.

The difference was so dramatic, I could not believe it. I wanted soooo NOT to go thru with the sale. But my heart would not let me back out. The person who got that guitar had a dandy, believe me.

God bless you all,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 09 June 2003 at 12:06 PM.]

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 9 Jun 2003 11:49 am

Buddy Emmons told me several years ago that not ever push pull he had played had "That Sound". Most of "That Sound" that is so frequently spoke of is Buddy. I have had so many people tell me: I got a push pull with the sound. I went and listened and guess what, NOT. Granted, the sound of the black album was a wonderful sound but only Buddy Emmons can reproduce that sound. I have heard some great sounding PPs, I have also heard some real dogs. I personally owned a PP that was a late 60s. I sold it and bought my first Zumsteel. The Zum came closer to "That Sound" than my Emmons. With that knowedge,it appears to me that had the Emmons company known all the tweaks needed to get "That Sound" they would have done that at the factory as apposed to sharing those matters with a outside repair person to have the guitar corrected 30 to 35 years after it was built.
Just my opinion.

Johnny

Bruce W Heffner · Post by **Bruce W Heffner** » 9 Jun 2003 11:54 am

I took a push pull in trade about a 1 1/2 years ago and promptly took it to Tommy Vollmer for a set up so that I could off the beast ASAP. When TV was done with the guitar, he suggested that I play it for a few minutes. The guitar is now in my personal inventory, along with 3 others that I have since aquired. They all sound different; however, they all sound great!

As my long time friend and mentor TV states, there is nothing more awesome then a push pull through a Webb or an Evans.

Lastly, all of the ones TV and I have had or worked on, had the sound, even the one TV and I are currently working on that had the E9 pick up flopping around with the wiring wrapped to the output jack and a set of rusty strings.

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www.pedalsteel.net [This message was edited by Bruce W Heffner on 09 June 2003 at 12:57 PM.][This message was edited by Bruce W Heffner on 09 June 2003 at 01:01 PM.]

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 9 Jun 2003 12:03 pm

I believe I heard Buddy say many years ago (late '70s) that he could hear the difference between a good-sounding Emmons guitar and a great-sounding Emmons guitar by picking the open strings with the guitar unplugged (no amp).

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 9 Jun 2003 12:08 pm

there is nothing more awesome then a push pull through a Webb or an Evans

Yeah, there is, Bruce: a push-pull through an old Standel -- or, even better, through a pair of old Standels in stereo. I know it makes MY socks go up and down.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Rick Tyson · Post by **Rick Tyson** » 9 Jun 2003 12:34 pm

When I bought my Black Emmons from Steve Byam who played for Trace Adkins, it was sight & sound unseen until it came off the UPS truck in my driveway. It was used to record "Thinking Thing" from what I had herd so did it have that sound? Yes

What a relief. My Carter has that sound too. I suspect I own one of the first Carter TBCs if not the first one Carter made, think Ill check with John some time. So both my Carter & Emmons have that sound,,is that luck or what.
I had an old timer tell me once a boxers strength is in his leggs just like a steels sound is in the leggs.
I dont know if I agree with him 100% but I do agree with him in a small way as I believe sound changes from hard wood floors to carpet playing surfaces somewhat.
But getting back to the topic, I believe there are many factors in getting that sound from a steel, strings, pick ups, changers, the right hand Etc and most of all what one hears as "that sound"