The End of the Push-Pull

Eddie Malray · From: South Fulton, Tennessee, USA

Fellow Members: I know this has probably been discussed many times but I have'nt been a member very long and this is my only connection to the Steel Guitar World. I'm pretty much the Lone Ranger around here as far as I know. Can anyone tell me the reason Emmons dropped the PP system. When the LeGrands came out I figured maybe they had decided the all pull was better and they were going to update. Now it seems a lot of players don't think so. Myselg, I could'nt really say. So, I began to think it was a cost cutting move. Can someone in the know explain this move? Just wondering.
THANKS< Eddie Malray

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

One of the main reasons for the demise of the push-pull was the much higher cost of production. With the high list price of the all-pull Emmons, which is almost as much as the new MSA, I'd hate to think what they would charge for a new push-pull.

Bob Snelgrove · From: san jose, ca

I still have never hear why it would cost so much more? parts is parts, right?

bob

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Maybe I'm missing something...but I can't see why it would so much more expensive to build? A little more assembly time (to set up), maybe. But actual actual "manufacturing time", no.

richard burton · From: Britain

It's far easier to change the set-up on an all-pull guitar, plus there is no inherent slack required in the mechanism, unlike a push-pull. Emmons had to go with the flow. It is only in retrospect that push-pulls have gained a reputation for good tone compared to all-pulls.

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 15 December 2006 at 07:29 AM.]

jim milewski · From: stowe, vermont

I believe it's the vibration/resonance transfer properties from finger to body that plays a large part in tone, then naturally the body construction to be in a favorable resonant frequency range of the notes of a pedal steel, a heavy guitar is stable but not very resonant being somewhat muted like MSA's in my opinion, most of the time you can tell by playing an unplugged guitar, my old emmons was so lively, I think the push pull changer was a simple uncluttered changer without pressed metal parts in the mechanism that helped give it that good sound

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Backfeeding the string! Some do, some don't. Some can, some can't. Overtones (good tone) are generated by this "backfeeding". Loops and lodes create tone,the path of vibration governs how much (if any) get back to the string from the body. The Emmons Push-Pull has the great combination of solid finger contact with the cabinet,(impossible with and all pull) resonant freqencys in the body obtained by correct materials and thicknesses. The manor in which all parts are connected also matters. The P-P vibration all goes into the body, all pull guitars send the vibration into the end casting which then goes directly into the legs and then the floor. (would you rather have a good sounding floor or guitar?)Ever wonder why ALL Emmons guitars have that big hole cut out in the middle of the cabinet between the necks? Did you think it was just to put that silly, usless tone bypass switch? Nope. Accustics,resonance,path of vibrating energy to backfeed the strings. Overtones! You bet. Many reasons why this is the premier sounding guitar. Can and will it ever be duplicated? I think so. Ain't quite happening yet but a couple of builders have their eyes open and are looking and listening hard. Good luck, all you builders and designers, think about tone!

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

The Emmons company came out with the LeGrande because of ease of manufacture and maintanance, NOT because they thought the LeGrande was a better guitar,(although it turned out to be a great guitar also). Many folks that were not mechanically inclined had some trouble learning how to tune the push-pull steel. Also , the P-P guitar was a little more expensive to build, it could have been cheapend but this is not the "Emmons way" of doing business. So this company built both guitars for Six years('81-'87) untill the demand for the Legrande was about 99 to 6 against the P-P. When it came time to re-order, re-tool,and generally re-build the P-P assy line, it was cost prohibitive and foolish to put money into building a product that would slow down production of the much in demand, sought after, new LeGrande.
Have any idea how much easier it is to build a 10 and 10 LeGrande than it is a 10 and 10 Push pull? Three Legrandes can be built in the time it takes to build one Push Pull. Time is money. However as we all know, both guitars are at the top of the pile."
I worked very closly with Ron Lashly throughout these years and now agree with his business moves, however, I'd like to see some more Emmons P-P guitars being built.
Bobbe

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 13 October 2002 at 10:53 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

To you guys that say Emmons can build the Push-Pull just as inexpensivly as the LeGrande, look at the bell cranks on both guitars. On the P-P, the bellcrank is made of seven parts and silver soldered, on the LeGrande, just two parts and stamped!
Multiply this by the typical 42 bellcranks on most simple double 10 guitars and you can see where a little of this extra expense is hiding.

Eddie Malray · From: South Fulton, Tennessee, USA

Thereis no doubt in my mind that the PP is a lot more expenseive to build. I"m a maintainance mechanic by trade and I know that the more parts the higher the cost.Thats why i figured they quite building them . I know it's a little more complicated but one thing I can say about the one I've owned for twenty-two years is that it's been absoutly trouble free. I started on all pull guitars and when I ordered the Emmons I didn'nt know push-pull from JACK. I thought it would be an all pull. Imagine the look on my face when I opened the case and saw underneath the thing. How in the world do I tune this I thought. But after reading the instructions it proved to be quite simple. Its always amazed me as to haw well it stays in tune. No need for me to ramble on anymore but I must say thanks for all your replies. You have expanded my Steel Education to another degree. EDDIE MALRAY

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

I am toying with either purchasing a Promat next year or an all pull guitar from a USA manufacturer to supplement my Sho-Bud. Quality, tone and back up support are all important, and Bobbe's comments are swaying me towards the Promat if only from the tone prespective.

Ken

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

"From what I've been able to garner off the Forum, tone is a function of cabinet material/construction, neck material/construction, and primarily of the type and ohmic rating of the pickup."

Mass and attachment of (plus construction of) the changer will have a huge effect on tone, just like changing the bridge material on a Tele or the Trem block on a Strat (or locking it down).

john widgren · From: Wilton CT

I had a lengthy conversation with the late Ron Lashley a few years ago. He told me that there was a market demand for all pull guitars which he welcomed. He also said that the inherent "over built" quality of the original guitars actually hurt him from a business standpoint. He said that he took pride in the qualities of the original, but because they were so good, they actually killed his "replacement instrument" market. He talked about his experience that "those old push pulls just won't die, and sometimes he wished they would." BTW none of this has anything to do with my opinions about PP's, (which for the record; I love). Please lets not turn this into any kind of "my guitar is better than your guitar" squabble." I'm just relating what the man told me, once upon a time.

[This message was edited by john widgren on 15 December 2006 at 07:12 AM.]

[This message was edited by john widgren on 15 December 2006 at 07:13 AM.]

Charles Curtis · Posted 15 Dec 2006 7:22 am

Well said, and I hope that someday Ron Lashley Sr. will be inducted in the SGHOF. I would love to have one of those original PP Emmons.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I know it was just a one time deal, but I bought two new D-10 push/pulls from Ron last year. The cabinets are 30 years old but everything else is brand new.

Besides being more expensive to build, another problem is for the steelers who are continually making changes to their copedent. It is quite difficult to make changes to the underbelly of a p/p. You pretty much have to decide on what you want and leave it that way.

I think my most prized p/p is a 1966 Black mica bolt on with 8 pedals and 8 knee levers. The undercarriage is all polished and before you open the case, you need to put on your dark glasses or the shine will hurt your eyes!

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think that if they still made push-pulls, everyone would be complaining about them. It's hard to get a push-pull adjusted right, and today's modern copedents with multiple raises, lowers and splits just make the problem worse.

They are great guitars for the mechanics among us, but if they were being made today a lot of people would buy new ones, knock them out of whack, and curse "good riddance" under their breath as they sell them on the Forum.

As it stands today, there are a limited number of these guitars in existance. Most have found their way into the loving hands of experts who can appreciate their design and trademark sound. I think this is a much better situation than the alternative.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

[This message was edited by b0b on 15 December 2006 at 11:03 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I think maybe a good compromise is Bruce Zumsteg's guitar with the hybrid changer.
He has incorporated the tone qualities of the p/p and the conveniences of the all pull into one guitar.
I have one on order and now the looooooooong wait.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

quote:
On the P-P, the bellcrank is made of seven parts and silver soldered, on the LeGrande, just two parts and stamped!
Multiply this by the typical 42 bellcranks on most simple double 10 guitars and you can see where a little of this extra expense is hiding.

I agree, Bobby...a "little" extra expense. I also notice that the bell-cranks and shafts were made of (cheap) plain steel and nickel-plated, instead of being made of stainless steel. Had Emmons had the equipment, the bell cranks could have been spot-welded, or induction welded instead of silver-soldering; that would have been a far more economical solution in the long term. As far as the rest of the parts (collars and swivels), they could be knocked out by the thousands on a modern CNC machine today.

Okay, so the bell-cranks cost a little more (I'll be generous and say they cost $10 more each to make), so that only accounts for about $400 in extra cost. But wait a minute, that's only around 10% more when we're talking a $4,000 guitar (which is where we are today).

That really ain't no big thing!

I think the reason they dropped the P/P is that the market wanted a different (better, more versatile and easier to deal with) guitar. The market wanted a guitar that had more adjustments for timing. (We've even had people arguing here on the Forum that 14-hole bellcranks were a "necessity" for accurate timing!) Timing adjustments on a P/P were about nil, you had the compression springs, and (if you were lucky) 2 holes on the bellcranks. They wanted a guitar that you didn't have to reach underneath and fidget with barrel tuners. They wanted a guitar that would do triple raises and lowers. They wanted a simpler, lighter, quieter, and easier-to-deal-with guitar.

I won't argue that the old P/P's sounded good, they certainly did, but players wanted more than just a good sound. The truth is that most pros today don't play one, and don't want to play one. Emmons isn't making them anymore for the same reason that GM isn't making a '57 Chevy.

The demand just isn't there.

For what people are paying today for a new Caddy, they could certainly build a '57 Chevy. But they wouldn't sell very many...because people today want more than a bench seat, a heater, and an AM radio.

What was "good enough" in the old days is simply no longer marketable to the masses.

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

That '57 Chevy with the bench seat, the heater and the am radio sure was more fun on a date than my late model Subaru! It sounded better, too!

[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 15 December 2006 at 12:54 PM.]

Darrell Owens · From: California, USA

I have a Push Pull reissue that I just bought this year, and it is a great guitar. It is an original, 30 year old body with all newly manufactured parts. The guitar sounds like an original PP, plays good and stays in tune. It is set up exactly like my LeGrande lll (bought last year). Both are D-10 and the PP actually cost a little less. It took longer to build the PP due to the wait for parts, but it was worth the wait.

I have a hard time trying to figure out which guitar I like the best. They are two completely different guitars.

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Darrell Owens
www.darrellowens.com

Chris Allen Burke · From: Signal Hill, CA

Promat!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

One of the drawbacks in a p/p is the slack you have to have in the raises so you can accomodate a lower on the same string. Just the nature of the changer.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

I like it better this concise:

Let's speculate on what the Lashley's had for breakfast this morning, and if we answer that question, we can move on to what they will have for lunch.

[This message was edited by Chris Lucker on 16 December 2006 at 10:27 AM.]

[This message was edited by Chris Lucker on 16 December 2006 at 12:53 PM.]

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