Buffer Question

[Jon Light]

Not related to my steel guitar setup but just a general implementation question in my rehearsal studio setup --

If I'm using a buffer (or a buffered fx unit) specifically to deal with a long instrument cable run, does the buffer work equally well at either end of the cable run or does that miss the point that it needs to convert the signal before the long run.

The question indicates that I do NOT understand this subject, for as long as I've tried to get inside the basics. Oh well. I'll rely on the kindness of strangers who do understand this.

[Brooks Montgomery]

Good question, I will be following. Buffers baffle me. Does a buffer at the beginning of a long cable prevent the capacitance effect? Or does a buffer at the end of a long cable restore a signal affected by the capacitance effect? Or none of the above?

[Tucker Jackson]

If I'm using a buffer (or a buffered fx unit) specifically to deal with a long instrument cable run, does the buffer work equally well at either end of the cable run or does that miss the point that it needs to convert the signal before the long run.

When you say "dealing with a long instrument cable run," do you mean the loss of high-end that happens when an unbuffered signal is sent through a longer cable (or a low-quality cable)?

If so, the answer would be the buffering unit will kick in and do its thing to preserve high-end a little better when it's placed after a short cable run. If it's at the end of a long cable, the buffer can't create high-end that never reached it in the first place. All it can do it preserve whatever signal that it receives. So, place it closer to the source -- and then you can have a longer cable run after the unit and there won't be any degradation.

[Jon Light]

...... Place it closer to the source -- and then you can have a longer cable run after the unit and there won't be any degradation.

Thanks Tucker. That's pretty much what I expected. Buffer is not some magic bullet that can receive a degraded signal and restore it.
But all this stuff is magic to me so if you'd said that it is a magic bullet, I'd would have said 'cool beans! I thought so!'

[Tucker Jackson]

This stuff is magic to me too. I know enough to answer a question, but haven't taken the time to learn the science.

[Ken Morgan]

Buffers are strange ducks, as they take what comes in, and give it a a nudge based in incoming and outgoing impedance needs.

Quite a few effects such as Boss, Ibanez, et al have buffers built into them, and some folks don’t like that, some do. Really old analog multi effects like Ibanez UE405, UE300, have a buffer at every effect, so you are getting a lot of them, ensuring zero signal degradation along the way from instrument to amp

Hi end recording equipment have adjustable buffer settings, a whole ‘nuther ball of wax.

Conventional practice suggests experimenting with buffer use. Some like them right after instrument, some right after last effect, some in the middle if it all.

For both steel and six string, my tuner, Peterson stomp, has a great buffer which gives enough ‘oomph’ to get thru cabling

[Jon Light]

Thanks Morgan.

Here's my scenario. Rehearsal at my place. Going to need a 25' cable from one of the acoustic guitar players to the board behind me on steel -- I'm the sound guy (which is sad, given my qualifications but I've run a number of my different groups here and we've all been happy with the sound).

I've never paid attention to this guitarist's signal chain but in the two gigs I've played with him his signal into the (crappy) sound system has been super weak. It may be that he needs a pre, not just a buffer. So I may put an MXR 10 band eq at his feet so we can get some gain. But I was wondering if having something at my fingertips next to the board could cure everything.

Bottom line is that I'm not worried about great sound, I just want adequate decent signal to work with.

[Bob Sykes]

from a noise perspective, buffer amps (like most pre-amps) are best placed as close as possible to the source in the signal chain. Typically the signal/noise ratio is degraded at the end of a long cable.

[Dave Grafe]

Thanks Morgan.

Here's my scenario. Rehearsal at my place. Going to need a 25' cable from one of the acoustic guitar players to the board behind me on steel -- I'm the sound guy (which is sad, given my qualifications but I've run a number of my different groups here and we've all been happy with the sound).

I've never paid attention to this guitarist's signal chain but in the two gigs I've played with him his signal into the (crappy) sound system has been super weak. It may be that he needs a pre, not just a buffer. So I may put an MXR 10 band eq at his feet so we can get some gain.

A preamp will work but all yoh need is a proper D.I. that receives his high impedance signal via 1/4" and sends it out low impedance and balanced via XLR. Normal PA stuff, less expensive and less hassle than a preamp.

[Jon Light]

A passive DI like this would do it? You mean these are for more than tilting back an amp?

[Dave Grafe]

Perfect

[Fred]

The idea of a buffer is to remove the load from the signal source. The source is the pickup. The load is everything else. Pickup=>shortest cable you have=>buffer=>everything else.