Sho Bud local to me - need help

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 23 Jul 2023 12:51 pm

Hi, all! I am considering buying a Sho Bud that popped up local to me, but need some help. I don’t know much about Buds and am still a novice player overall. I have attached the pictures, it looks like a Emmons setup from what I can tell but the guy is not very knowledgeable and can’t answer questions. Appears to be a ‘76 3 pedal, 4 knee. Selling for $2K. I’m considering upgrading to this from my BMI 3x2, can anyone that knows more than me review the pictures and help fill in any detail about what I may have here? Does it seem like a good deal? Thanks so much!

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 23 Jul 2023 1:35 pm

It's a bit of a hodge-podge of transitional pre Super Pro hardware, Super Pro stuff and home made parts. I see nothing 'red flag'ish unless the person were claiming any kind of originality. Then you'd be dealing with a fraudster.
I'm so-so about the price. I could go either way -- that you could/should bargain it down because of its mongrel nature, or that it's a nice price for what is largely a Sho-Bud that ought to play and sound like one.

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 23 Jul 2023 1:46 pm

Jon Light wrote:It's a bit of a hodge-podge of transitional pre Super Pro hardware, Super Pro stuff and home made parts. I see nothing 'red flag'ish unless the person were claiming any kind of originality. Then you'd be dealing with a fraudster.
I'm so-so about the price. I could go either way -- that you could/should bargain it down because of its mongrel nature, or that it's a nice price for what is largely a Sho-Bud that ought to play and sound like one.

Jon, this is extremely helpful, thanks so much. That makes sense, the only single neck 3x4 Bud production model I could find info on was the LDG, which this didn’t seem to be. The seller isn’t claiming originality, but is the owner of a store where this ended up. He isn’t a player, and can’t offer any further detail than the pictures. Also I should have said “local-ish” it is about 3 hours from me, which due to a new baby is only doable if I am for sure buying it, no testing first sadly. You’ve given me some great food for thought here.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 23 Jul 2023 4:26 pm

The knee levers look well made but not Sho~Bud. The rest looks ok but I think $2K is a bit high. Maybe $1600?

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 23 Jul 2023 4:59 pm

K Maul wrote:The knee levers look well made but not Sho~Bud. The rest looks ok but I think $2K is a bit high. Maybe $1600?

Thanks for the input; that’s good to know. I’m going to think on it for a day or two and then see if the price can lowered at all.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 23 Jul 2023 7:38 pm

The first thing that caught my eye when I looked at the under hood pictures. There are 2 different types of Bell Cranks/Attachment of Pull Rod systems in the guitar.

It looks the guitar was born a 3 pedal steel, And the knee levers was added later.

Is that a Serial Number on the pedal side, End Plate?
What is written on the white tag near 1st pedal cross shaft?

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 23 Jul 2023 11:08 pm

Bobby D. Jones wrote:The first thing that caught my eye when I looked at the under hood pictures. There are 2 different types of Bell Cranks/Attachment of Pull Rod systems in the guitar.

It looks the guitar was born a 3 pedal steel, And the knee levers was added later.

Is that a Serial Number on the pedal side, End Plate?
What is written on the white tag near 1st pedal cross shaft?

Yes, serial number appears to be 11759. The white tag appears to say 140U-2824 1976.

Very interesting, if it was born a 3 pedal steel that would make it a 6138 Maverick, correct?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 Jul 2023 2:01 am

Serial number indicates '76 or '77 (from a chronological database, not from 'reading the code').

To my eyes, RKL hardware is period correct, matching the pedals, except for the lever itself.

At first glance I was going to call LKL semi-original but with different bellcranks and some hand made parts but I no longer think so.

The longer I look at it, the more hodge-podge I see. I am now very much leaning toward Kevin's assessment that this is too hacked to pay the asking price. The hacking looks like it could work ok but it is very far from professional.

Sorry to change my song but IMO you really need to think hard. And regardless of the distance, you need to play it and be prepared to walk away if it does not feel like it operates acceptably. $1600 should buy you a well-working steel guitar. There is nothing about this that is a 'hidden gem'. At $800, maybe. IOW don't be dazzled because it a Sho-Bud and it is semi-near to you.

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 24 Jul 2023 2:35 am

Jon Light wrote:Serial number indicates '76 or '77 (from a chronological database, not from 'reading the code').

To my eyes, RKL hardware is period correct, matching the pedals, except for the lever itself.

At first glance I was going to call LKL semi-original but with different bellcranks and some hand made parts but I no longer think so.

The longer I look at it, the more hodge-podge I see. I am now very much leaning toward Kevin's assessment that this is too hacked to pay the asking price. The hacking looks like it could work ok but it is very far from professional.

Sorry to change my song but IMO you really need to think hard. And regardless of the distance, you need to play it and be prepared to walk away if it does not feel like it operates acceptably. $1600 should buy you a well-working steel guitar. There is nothing about this that is a 'hidden gem'. At $800, maybe. IOW don't be dazzled because it a Sho-Bud and it is semi-near to you.

Thanks for the wisdom here, that settles it for me, I’ll pass on this one and keep an eye on the sales in the forum. Thank you so much!

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 Jul 2023 2:58 am

Sorry.
At the very least, having a seller who can tell you "I played it and it really plays well and sounds good" can give you some sort of feeling. But "I know nothing...I'm selling it 'as is'" makes too much of this deal ride on your hopes and not enough ride on fair expectation.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 24 Jul 2023 3:02 am

Good decision. And now that you've passed on it: for about $300 you could probably upgrade your BMI to 3x4 with original parts from Don Fritsch. A little daunting for someone relatively new to pedal steel, but not rocket science, and Don is very helpful with installation advice and support.

I'm a Sho Bud guy, but I picked up a BMI S-10 last fall, and I think it's a great steel.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 24 Jul 2023 4:20 am

Dan Beller-McKenna wrote:Good decision. And now that you've passed on it: for about $300 you could probably upgrade your BMI to 3x4 with original parts from Don Fritsch. A little daunting for someone relatively new to pedal steel, but not rocket science, and Don is very helpful with installation advice and support.

I'm a Sho Bud guy, but I picked up a BMI S-10 last fall, and I think it's a great steel.

I’ll chime in one last time on this and agree 100% with Dan. For a few hundred $$ the BMI can be upgraded even with two more knees and you’d have a very nice machine. It would be a good learning experience, not that difficult. BMIs are a top shelf design.

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 24 Jul 2023 5:59 am

I appreciate the suggestions to upgrade the BMI. The BMI is a fine steel, and has served me well, but the placement of the pedals (closer to the center of the steel itself due to the 3x2 configuration) causes me some left foot discomfort while playing. Had it for most of this year and was hoping it would resolve as I got used to it, but doesn’t seem to be clearing up. Never had the issue with my old Stage One (regret selling it every day). Pretty determined to move on from it and get something that has 4 levers and has pedals further to the left, but also want something pro grade if possible. Monitoring used listings, hoping for the right deal. A 3x3 Sho Bud Pro 1 sold for $2K a month or two ago, and I’m kicking myself for not jumping on it at the time.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 24 Jul 2023 6:31 am

Sounds to me like you are kind of set on a sho bud.. They are good guitars, but for the kind of money a good one brings, there are better options mechanically... It all depends on what you want... I love an old Bud as much as the next steel guy, but more modern designs are simply more reliable day in and out... You are going to pay 2300-3000 for a nice Bud S10 thats been cared for properly.I might look around and see what else you can find in that price range before settling on a Sho Bud of questionable origin.. the one pictured looked ok I guess, but I would add 2 levers to your BMI for a lot less, and it will do every single thing that Bud could do.. If I absolutely had to have a Sho Bud, and would accept no substitutes, I would hold out for a super clean under the bed one, or one thats been restored by a good steel guy.. They are out there, but you will pay a premium for one.. Buds are nice guitars they really are, but clean ones are getting very pricey, and there are other brands that are simply going to give you a lot more for the dollar....

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 24 Jul 2023 6:46 am

Bob Carlucci wrote:Sounds to me like you are kind of set on a sho bud.. They are good guitars, but for the kind of money a good one brings, there are better options mechanically... It all depends on what you want... I love an old Bud as much as the next steel guy, but more modern designs are simply more reliable day in and out... You are going to pay 2300-3000 for a nice Bud S10 thats been cared for properly.I might look around and see what else you can find in that price range before settling on a Sho Bud of questionable origin.. the one pictured looked ok I guess, but I would add 2 levers to your BMI for a lot less, and it will do every single thing that Bud could do.. If I absolutely had to have a Sho Bud, and would accept no substitutes, I would hold out for a super clean under the bed one, or one thats been restored by a good steel guy.. They are out there, but you will pay a premium for one.. Buds are nice guitars they really are, but clean ones are getting very pricey, and there are other brands that are simply going to give you a lot more for the dollar....

Thanks for the input, Bob. Not set on a Bud specifically, just found 2 examples of them. I’m open to other options as well. Just interested in trying something other than the BMI, I haven’t quite bonded with it the way I expected. Nothing wrong with it, just doesn’t seem to click with me.

Pat Chong · Post by **Pat Chong** » 24 Jul 2023 6:57 am

Hi Jason,

I agree with go-the-cheaper-way of fixing up your BMI instead of buying a Sho-Bud of questionable origin. As far as your BMI pedals being a little misplaced, I'm sure those can be moved to a more comfortabe position, plus adding other pedals and levers, if you so desire. Your are fortunate, BMI is still in business. You don't have to beg/search for parts like I do on my Dekley, or the Sho-Bud you were looking at.

As far as the Sho-Bud goes, I wouldn't mind trying it myself, but (as others said) not at that price.

.....Pat

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 24 Jul 2023 7:04 am

I have had the chance to play BMI guitars, and I like them, but understand what you are saying.. I never really "bonded" with them.. For the price [or less] of a good Bud, I would look at Carter, Desert Rose, Justice, Fessenden, and other more modern brands in a clean used guitar... The mechanicals are better, and they have a quieter more precision design... there are a dozen other brands as well out there to be considered,,, Keep in touch here and guys will certainly be willing to share experiences.. Prices on all steels are going up continually, and its getting tough to find anything seriously good for under 2K, and anything in very clean shape is probably going to be more than that,depending on trim level,single or double neck etc...

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 24 Jul 2023 7:44 am

Here's where to put your $2000 to fix the pedal location issue, right here on the forum

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=393111

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 Jul 2023 8:11 am

BMI was my first steel -- 3+2 that I upgraded to 3+4 a few years later. I consider myself lucky to have had my start with this steel vs. a student model. Still have it.
That said, it's not my jam. I totally get wanting a different guitar. If you have the desire and the means to get one, Jason, there is no reason anyone can present that makes any difference at all, as pertains to you.

Regarding Bud mojo, that, too, is a personal decision. But remember that even a beat up, barely playing Bud has mojo. But that won't do you a lot of good as a musical tool. Which car do you buy -- a Kia or a 57 Chevy? Depends on if you need transportation or if you want a project/show piece. And yes, you can find a Sho-Bud in good condition that plays well and if this is your holy grail, then this is what you should have.

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 24 Jul 2023 8:16 am

Dave Grafe wrote:Here's where to put your $2000 to fix the pedal location issue, right here on the forum

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=393111

I saw that! Beautiful steel, the 2” lift may be a bit too tall for me though. I have it on my radar for sure. Thanks for posting!

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 24 Jul 2023 8:21 am

Jon Light wrote:BMI was my first steel -- 3+2 that I upgraded to 3+4 a few years later. I consider myself lucky to have had my start with this steel vs. a student model. Still have it.
That said, it's not my jam. I totally get wanting a different guitar. If you have the desire and the means to get one, Jason, there is no reason anyone can present that makes any difference at all, as pertains to you.

Regarding Bud mojo, that, too, is a personal decision. But remember that even a beat up, barely playing Bud has mojo. But that won't do you a lot of good as a musical tool. Which car do you buy -- a Kia or a 57 Chevy? Depends on if you need transportation or if you want a project/show piece. And yes, you can find a Sho-Bud in good condition that plays well and if this is your holy grail, then this is what you should have.

Thanks, Jon! Yeah at this point I have tried a Carter Starter (helped me get off the ground with learning the basics, but got rid of it fairly quickly), a Zum Stage One (really loved this one, only sold it because I decided steel wasn’t practical for me and wanted to consolidate my music investments to a better bass guitar. I regretted it ever since and bought the BMI to get back in), and the BMI. The Stage One was my favorite, but are challenging to find these days. The BMI is good, but I have an interest in trying a different type to keep getting the feel for different steels to see what I click with and don’t. I don’t have a store near me that routinely stocks PSG so only way to try different options is to buy and sell.

All that being said, I hope I didn’t imply that I am fixated on Sho Buds particularly. I just saw that one near me and since it was within driving distance, was hoping it would be a good deal. I am definitely looking at other brands as well.

Jason Boucouras · Post by **Jason Boucouras** » 24 Jul 2023 8:24 am

Bob Carlucci wrote:I have had the chance to play BMI guitars, and I like them, but understand what you are saying.. I never really "bonded" with them.. For the price [or less] of a good Bud, I would look at Carter, Desert Rose, Justice, Fessenden, and other more modern brands in a clean used guitar... The mechanicals are better, and they have a quieter more precision design... there are a dozen other brands as well out there to be considered,,, Keep in touch here and guys will certainly be willing to share experiences.. Prices on all steels are going up continually, and its getting tough to find anything seriously good for under 2K, and anything in very clean shape is probably going to be more than that,depending on trim level,single or double neck etc...

Appreciate the wisdom, Bob. Definitely considering other brands like you mentioned as well. I’ve noticed prices trending upwards over the last few years, thankfully I’m not in need of double neck or anything fancy. A pad or SD10 would be nice, but unlikely with a clean steel in my price point, mostly just looking for a clean 3x4 guitar that isn’t a student model. Not in a hurry by any means either, willing to monitor the forum for a bit to scope out the right deal.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 Jul 2023 8:41 am

Jason Boucouras wrote:
All that being said, I hope I didn’t imply that I am fixated on Sho Buds particularly.....

Absolutely correct. Sorry. I don't know where that came from but it was not from you. I may have been channeling my own lust from back when I found my Bud (which is not my #1 guitar but which I am glad to have).

Chris Templeton · Post by **Chris Templeton** » 24 Jul 2023 4:50 pm

Older guitars, and "garage guitars" often have tuning issues along with mechanical ones.
A major benefit of these guitars is to see if one has an interest in playing the pedal steel.
Playing a cheap lap steel or borrowing/renting a steel can also help finding out if the steel is for you.

Jack Tekiela · Post by **Jack Tekiela** » 26 Aug 2023 11:58 am

I actually ended picking this guy up (traded a stratocaster for it). Had a friend and long time steeler look over it, and it hold tunes and plays beautifully. It is certainly a road dog, but it's serving me well.