C6th/Jazz: "Neck"-Pickup?

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 16 Jul 2023 1:41 pm

I am getting more and more into Jazz and at times do long for a "darker" tone.
Just rolling off the heights seems to kill too much and lead to muddy only.

I just watched a few videos on how some play Jazz on Strats and Teles, and even on Les Pauls they all use primarily the "Neck"-pickup.

I have seen few pictures of steels with 2 pickups, a second one closer up the neck just behind the picking area (I try to center my picking to the 24th fret).

Two questions:
- Have some of you experimented successfully with "Neck"-pickup?
- Any "flat" pickups around which would fit ON the neck just under the strings?

Thanks!... J-D.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 16 Jul 2023 6:33 pm

Dan Tyack has surface mount Lollar Gold Foil pickups in the neck position, I think on his e9 neck. There's a video on the Lollar Youtube page I think. It sounds great.

If you have a neck pickup installed it's also a good idea to have a kill switch for that pickup in a handy position. Neck pickups are usually installed under the 24th fret, and it's fairly common for steel players to want to play above 24, at least for a moment. If you are playing on the neck pickup and go above 24, you are amplifying the wrong side of the string.

There are some fantastic tones available through neck pickups on PSG that rarely get explored. It is true that string separation and clarity are hallmarks of bridge pickups generally, and the PSG needs those characteristics. That said a good neck pickup can still have those in the "neck" position. Also there's no reason that you can't mix the outputs of the pickups to get the best of both worlds, even if the neck pickup is lacking somehow. From a sound perspective I don't really see the downside of having them installed if they are well built, sound good, and have the right wiring options.

On the other hand, it is true that installing them causes damage to the fretboard either through routing or set screws, and of course then the pickup is in the way of the fretboard markers. I can totally understand why someone with an antique Emmons or Sho-Bud would have no desire to bust out the router or drill just so they can have a neck pickup.

Finally, they're just not "necessary." As far as I know none of the really famous players use one, and I think that's part of the reason neck pickups aren't a big part of PSG. Some instrument communities are more open to non-standard options than others, and I could be wrong but the PSG community seems quite traditional, although there are always exceptions. This can be a really good thing because it is far more important to practice your playing and work on existing technique than it is to invent a new copedent or incorporate a new guitar pedal or whatever. Most people will never play as well as Buddy Emmons, but they'd play alot better if they just focused on improving on the instrument.

I agree with all that but I still like neck pickups haha.

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 16 Jul 2023 8:53 pm

Hmmmm.......

Could a 31 band graphic be tweaked enough to give you "that tone"?

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 17 Jul 2023 5:54 am

Dave Hopping wrote:Hmmmm.......

Could a 31 band graphic be tweaked enough to give you "that tone"?

Not that I've found, no

I will say though, if you're messing around with tone and haven't tried switching from a solid state amp to a tube amp I'd try that long before I'd try a neck pickup.

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 17 Jul 2023 6:42 am

I have built several of these, for example see pic below.

These mount with velcro or command strips.

It is a cool tone, but I would say the tone difference doesn't work the exactly same as on a 6 string guitar neck to bridge pickup due to typical steel construction and the fact of bar vs frets.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 18 Jul 2023 4:46 am

I like those pickups. That's a nice non-invasive way to mount them too. However I would say they are more like a second bridge pickup, as far as where they are placed on the string. Typically jazz neck pickups are placed way up at the 24th fret, while these are still very close to the changer.

Would that velcro mount system still work if they were placed further up the neck?

Thanks for your response I didn't know these existed!

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 18 Jul 2023 7:19 am

Yes you can mount them with the velcro wherever you want on the fretboard, this customer just likes them as shown.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 18 Jul 2023 7:19 am

Jerry Sentell has a similar surface-mount model, the NC-18, which he will build to match your string-spread:

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 20 Jul 2023 8:13 am

As a long time jazz guitarist, I am 100% in sympathy with this particular quest. The brightness of most steel guitars is very hard for me to play with, makes me jump with every note.

However, in attempting to achieve the same tone I get on my archtop, I have found a problem, especially in live performance. Mud is very possible, especially if you’re playing adjacent strings in the lower register. I do what I can - I use a Telonics 12 X12 (I think that’s what it’s called - it’s their current 12 string pickup), and a Telonics amp, with the bass up, the treble down (within the suggested scope marked on the amps by Telonics), mids cut a bit at 1k (which on archtops is the nasal sound I hate the most), and the Blend knob about 1/3 or more to the left, which darkens the tone.

It is absolutely not the jazz guitar sound I use, which, by the way, is slightly brighter than the classic sound since I mix chords and lines together all the time and need clarity and less mud, a compromise), but it seems to sit best in a live situation with bass, drums, and horns (I rarely play with guitar or piano, like to deal with my own chords). Please let me know if the neck pickup idea works - I know it does for Dan Tyack, I’d talk to him for sure.

Here are samples - the steel is brighter than I desire, and here is direct from amp to computer, but works well live. The next is my archtop through an Acoustic Image on a radio show, I can’t get the steel like this….

https://youtu.be/vnb9O8VbKMw

https://youtu.be/8qqysp9JYGM

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 20 Jul 2023 10:24 am

Christopher have you tried any tube amps? I've found most tones that were too bright were caused by solid state amplification. There are definitely lots of very bright tube amps as well, but there are also tube amps with considerably mellower tones, which still have sufficient power and string separation for pedal steel. I must admit that I stopped bothering with solid state amps so maybe there are some great ones now. I just wondered what your experience has been.

Other than that maybe you'd like to try some of Scott's velcro mounted pickups at various places on the neck. I do think pickup placement is a very big part of why pedal steel can be so shrill. It's pretty rare to see a pickup near the 24th fret on a pedal steel, but you can apparently velcro one on there no problem!

And while I love Dan Tyack's goldfoil tone, I don't think it's what you're looking for. You could PM him on this forum and ask him questions though. Worth a shot.

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 20 Jul 2023 12:57 pm

Justin

I might not have been clear - I am ok with this tone, personally, darker than many, but clear enough to cut through when I play live with my jazz quartet. I think it works ok.

I just put up the samples for JD to hear my solutions.

To be honest, I don’t like tube amps at all, for me. Just my taste.

Thanks for the ideas!

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 20 Jul 2023 3:05 pm

Maybe a slightly less hot output would be suitable as well...
Doesn't Russ Pahl make some nice lower output pick ups that breathe a little more naturally?

Ken Pippus · Post by **Ken Pippus** » 20 Jul 2023 3:26 pm

The mechanics so dictate, but the pickups in Scott's picture are not very much further from the bridge than the stock, certainly compared to the neck pickup on any standard guitar. That almost certainly reduces the effect. The neck pickup on an L5 (or a Tele!) is a long way from the bridge.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 21 Jul 2023 6:00 am

Thanks to all. I am surprised by the number of responses.

First let me set one type of suggestion aside.
I use a 12 string for C6th... but my range is the same as on a 10 string.
My thinnest string gauge is o.o15 (E) and thickest o.o72 for the low C going down to A with "P8". One might think that the relationship is 1 to 5 (diameter) but what creates the different sound is not the diameter of strings but the cross section... and from a o.ooo1766 square inch cross section to a o.oo407 square inch cross section is a 1 to 23 relationship!
Thus already guitarists with a much lesser spread and above all steel guitarist are condemned to eternally fiddle with their EQ because we Eq ALL our signal.
The same happens if we change from amp to amp, solid, FET or tube. It affects our bundled signal as a whole.

I've always hoped for pickup with a signal for each or a pair of strings to be able to EQ the different cross section types individually.

If we roll off chirpy highs from thin strings, we take "livelyness" out of the thicker and the very thick strings... they then sound dead. No matter how many bands you have on your equalizer. It affects ALL strings but the way it affects each string's tonal range is very different and too often a trade-off.

You can't dial it in the traditional mid-rangy dark tone of a Jazz guitar on a Strat's bridge pickup. You have to work off the neck pickup. Same on a Tele... and even on Jazz Guitars with 2 or 3 pickups, the sound is mostly coming from the bridge pickup. It's like picking left of the 24th fret... it sounds warmer but we loose control over the overtones, as such it's not good picking form, as additionally, the strings are too soft out left to pick fast.

I am very interested in these "welcro"-on pickups, and will PM the posters privately about that.

I will also take this to the Electronics Forum, because I have questions about blending these pickups. I wonder if I can blend in a "neck"-pickup only under the top 6 strings... maybe go to a layout where I have a traditionally place "bridge" pickup only under the bottom strings (to keep them "clear") and a "neck" pickup under the higher strings.

I am fully aware that I will NOT get the "Joe Pass" tone. Neither do I aim to, but I need to round these highs off while keeping my bass string defined.

Thanks!... J-D.

Slim Heilpern · Post by **Slim Heilpern** » 22 Jul 2023 5:57 am

J D's post makes me want to try an experiment, and I will next time I'm recording my steel. I have an EQ plugin from FabFilter that offers a dynamic mode, similar to the concept of a multi-band compressor, only in this case it's not compression, but EQ. So, you can have EQ bands that only kick in when a particular frequency range is loud enough. This may allow one to tame the high end without impacting the low end -- with plenty of tweakability. If I have any success with this I'll post before and after recordings.

- Slim

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 22 Jul 2023 6:22 am

Justin Shaw wrote:I like those pickups. That's a nice non-invasive way to mount them too. However I would say they are more like a second bridge pickup, as far as where they are placed on the string. Typically jazz neck pickups are placed way up at the 24th fret, while these are still very close to the changer. [bold mine]

Would that velcro mount system still work if they were placed further up the neck?

Thanks for your response I didn't know these existed!

Interesting observation Justin, on a standard guitar, any time you are using the neck pickup, you are picking between the 2 pups and on the opposite side of the neck pup. All the two pickup steels I've seen have the second pickup adjacent to the original one at the bridge.

Has anyone ever tried placing a second pickup on the steel further up the neck as Justin alludes ala a jazz box? Sonically, how would this even work on a pedal steel? Also, are the strings closer to the board on a steel and would or would not this interfere with one's physical picking of the strings?

Also for Scott, does your pickup just add another sound on top of the existing one or is there a way to switch between your pickup and the existing pedal steel pickup like a standard guitar pickup?

For this to happen, seems you'd need a 3 way switch same as a standard guitar wiring. With this addition on a double neck then you'd need 2 such 3 way switches to switch or blend pickups. Just thinking outloud here as I've always wondered about having that option.

I'm sure this is not a new idea and all the innovators and tinkerers have been through this before and probably abandoned the idea for whatever reasons?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 22 Jul 2023 6:56 am

Do to the very basic differences between pedalsteel and guitar we might be looking in the wrong places for a rich tone for jazz. Steel guitars tend to accentuate the even overtones with give them the ability to play very close voicings and legato counterpoint phrases. These sounds are not particularly even possible on a standard jazz guitar but absolutely there all the time with a pedalsteel. Look at how brass sections play chords in an Ellington arrangement. Nothing dark about it. Why emulate the limitations of of a jazz box when you have a string quartet at your fingertips ? The clarity and fullness of a trombone is readily available on the pedalsteel with minor adjustments of technique only.

If you really really want your tone to function like a jazz box guitar ( a beautiful sound btw) look at your steel. It must be even and clear on every string and everyplace on the neck or you will always be chasing your tail. Most pedalsteels just do not have that quality in the first place.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 23 Jul 2023 1:45 pm

Bob Hoffnar wrote:Do to the very basic differences between pedalsteel and guitar we might be looking in the wrong places for a rich tone for jazz. Steel guitars tend to accentuate the even overtones with give them the ability to play very close voicings and legato counterpoint phrases. These sounds are not particularly even possible on a standard jazz guitar but absolutely there all the time with a pedalsteel. Look at how brass sections play chords in an Ellington arrangement. Nothing dark about it. Why emulate the limitations of of a jazz box when you have a string quartet at your fingertips ? The clarity and fullness of a trombone is readily available on the pedalsteel with minor adjustments of technique only.

If you really really want your tone to function like a jazz box guitar ( a beautiful sound btw) look at your steel. It must be even and clear on every string and everyplace on the neck or you will always be chasing your tail. Most pedalsteels just do not have that quality in the first place.

I don't seek to emulate the limitations of a "Jazz Box" or any other guitar. There are things beyond "gliss" we can do guitar players can't and likewise there are things they can and we can't do very easily or clean... rapid long clean chromatic lines come to mind, but so much more.
I think that you will find that many Jazz guitarist choose a "Jazz Box" not to limit themselves but because a softer, "darker", rounder tone with less "sizzle" seems to fit better into the style.
I still like Jimmy Bryant on his Tele with Speedy a LOT... but even his sound is not the sound of a "Country"-Tele or Paul Burlinson's Rockabilly sound behind Johnny Burnette. Speedy was a Swing-Jazz player in the Rockabilly era, and his sound had that crisp "Capitol Records Sound"... he could have fit in with the Gene Vincent band.
After "ditching" steel in 2001 I spent about 15 years playing rhythm with "Gypsy"-Jazz players... on French acoustic steel string guitars modeled after Django Reinhardt's Selmer. Favino, Busato, DiMauro, Castellucia... etc. They are VERY bright and lively sounding guitars... some also boast a rumbling bass... a growl, a bit like what is expected from a good Emmons push-pull. But it's sparkling, at times almost "icy" bright cut-thru-everything bright loudness of these guitars which paired with the correct technique shape the sound of "Gypsy"-Jazz. It's different than, let's say Joe Pass and the sort of Jazz Guitarist.
I enjoyed the freedom of NOT having to deal with EQ once I had a quality instrument which would "do it"... and many just don't have "it"... even some with the most desirable name on them.

But then, when you play alongside a B3 Jazz-Blues organ, with a PSG, the sizzly sound of a guitar built like for Country E9th may not be the best fit for ME.

I would love to experiment with a slanted pickup, but unlike traditionally found on electric guitars, slanted towards the neck (Fretboard) on the treble end, to keep bottom strings crisp and make thin string warmer, with more "body". The size of the vibrations is just bigger away from the bridge, more amplitude.

So, it's not about limiting but much to the contrary, about being able to also create a different sound with the same instrument, one I feel would fit in better with what I aim to play.

So, I will try several things. And have already written to a pickup builder for a "flat" pickup I could velcro onto the neck under strings without having to drag my guitars under a milling machine.

"We don't need no stinkin' limitations!"

... J-D.

Slim Heilpern wrote:J D's post makes me want to try an experiment, and I will next time I'm recording my steel. I have an EQ plugin from FabFilter that offers a dynamic mode, similar to the concept of a multi-band compressor, only in this case it's not compression, but EQ. So, you can have EQ bands that only kick in when a particular frequency range is loud enough. This may allow one to tame the high end without impacting the low end -- with plenty of tweakability. If I have any success with this I'll post before and after recordings.

- Slim

Interesting. I never had heard of "dynamic"-EQ.
Makes sense and with the current state of electronics one would think that's absolutely doable. I just never had seen such an EQ and after a quick hour on youtube and google, I have been unable to find a PHYSICAL one, only "Apps" to plug into a DAP (recording and editing software)..., no "stomp boxes".
Am I not searching right?

Thanks!... J-D.

Slim Heilpern · Post by **Slim Heilpern** » 23 Jul 2023 2:26 pm

J D Sauser wrote:
Interesting. I never had heard of "dynamic"-EQ.
Makes sense and with the current state of electronics one would think that's absolutely doable. I just never had seen such an EQ and after a quick hour on youtube and google, I have been unable to find a PHYSICAL one, only "Apps" to plug into a DAP (recording and editing software)..., no "stomp boxes".
Am I not searching right?

Thanks!... J-D.

It may never be developed in hardware (let alone a stomp box), although who knows... But, just like multi-band compressors (which can probably produce a very similar result), if you can find a hardware one at all, probably would be expensive and have a less-than-optimal user interface due to the complexity of the task.

As I mentioned, I have a wonderful DAW plugin that does this and I plan to play around with the concept to see if it helps to bring some crispness to the low strings while keeping the high strings on the mellow side, specifically for a jazzier sound. If you're interested in the concept, this link points to the Dynamic EQ page of the FabFilter Pro-Q 3 manual: https://www.fabfilter.com/downloads/pdf ... %2Cnull%5D

My situation is fairly unique in that I don't gig on PSG, but do record with it frequently. So doing this in software is not a problem for me.

Of course, it would be better to solve this on the PSG itself, but I'm not ready to go down that path, at least not yet...

BTW, great hearing about your Gypsy Jazz stint -- I'm a proud owner of a Maccaferri copy. Love that music!

- Slim

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 23 Jul 2023 3:04 pm

Slim Heilpern wrote:
J D Sauser wrote:
Interesting. I never had heard of "dynamic"-EQ.
Makes sense and with the current state of electronics one would think that's absolutely doable. I just never had seen such an EQ and after a quick hour on youtube and google, I have been unable to find a PHYSICAL one, only "Apps" to plug into a DAP (recording and editing software)..., no "stomp boxes".
Am I not searching right?

Thanks!... J-D.
It may never be developed in hardware (let alone a stomp box), although who knows... But, just like multi-band compressors (which can probably produce a very similar result), if you can find a hardware one at all, probably would be expensive and have a less-than-optimal user interface due to the complexity of the task.

As I mentioned, I have a wonderful DAW plugin that does this and I plan to play around with the concept to see if it helps to bring some crispness to the low strings while keeping the high strings on the mellow side, specifically for a jazzier sound. If you're interested in the concept, this link points to the Dynamic EQ page of the FabFilter Pro-Q 3 manual: https://www.fabfilter.com/downloads/pdf ... %2Cnull%5D

My situation is fairly unique in that I don't gig on PSG, but do record with it frequently. So doing this in software is not a problem for me.

Of course, it would be better to solve this on the PSG itself, but I'm not ready to go down that path, at least not yet...

BTW, great hearing about your Gypsy Jazz stint -- I'm a proud owner of a Maccaferri copy. Love that music!

- Slim

Thanks Slim.
Nice to hear about your Maccaferri copy. We just spent 10 days at the Django Reinhardt Festival in Samois Sur Seine near Fontainebleau, just 50miles South of Paris.
I used to "hang" there each year until "Covid"... it's been our first time back since "Covid".

I have a multi-band EQ.
The way they work is like when you hang a rope between as many poles as you have sliders. So when you raise one, it affects ALL frequencies between the poles as the "rope" hangs thru to the next slider. Essentially, the difference between an EQ with a lot of sliders and one with just 2 or 4 is that the one with 3 or 4 will act across all frequencies like a "rubber band"... meaning that if you raise one side, it creates a dip on the other end and vice versa. An EQ with more sliders acts like if when you pinch the "rope" and pull it up or down between the one left and right. In essence, the more sliders you have, the less "smooth" your EQ is, the more definite.
The problem still persists, that unless you have split pickups for certain string groups or one for each individual strings, EVERYTHING you do, works on the bundled signal of all strings.
A "dynamic" or "smart" EQ could indeed help in that it could be programmed to identify, lets say, high pitched frequencies in greater amplitude (higher level) and be set to only roll off these. Evidently, higher thinner strings could be reasonably expected to create more, louder high pitched frequencies one might want to target to roll off, while keeping the limited sparkle on thicker lower strings.

I still think that the evident desirable solution would be individual pickups and outputs for each string or even only every 2 o 3 strings, so that one could EQ each type of string (plain/wound, thick/thin) based on each their particular characteristics.

Guitars in general have an inherent "imperfection" compared to harps and pianos: Equal scale length. Ideally like on a harp or a piano, thick bassy strings should be much longer than thin high pitched string. Evidently on guitars, including our "contraption" this is not possible (Although some guitars and basses have tried to achieve a little bit of that with the use of "fanned" frets. But the scale length difference achieve like this, is not sufficient to make a notable difference in timbre.

And then, we could just do what BE did, and just play the living daylights out'a that thing!

... J-D.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 Jul 2023 11:49 am

I enjoyed the freedom of NOT having to deal with EQ once I had a quality instrument which would "do it"... and many just don't have "it"... even some with the most desirable name on them.

J.D.

This is what I'm talking about with chasing your tail with EQ on the steel. You dial in a good sound on the low strings and the high strings cut your head off. Guitars don't have that problem for the most part even though their range is similar. I don't think very many pedalsteels actually ring even enough to do what you seem to be looking for. Most of it can be functionally dealt with by technique and some steels are better than others when it comes to that issue. I'm not sure if a combination of pickups or standard EQ would do much though.

For a hardware unit that does what you are talking about try something that does what this does:

http://www.tube-tech.com/smc-2b-multiba ... ompressor/

There are tons of amazing plug ins for this stuff but they are not available yet for real time playing as a far as I know. If I was searching for a stomp box version I would use the multiband compressor as a possible starting point. The Tube Tech thing is a $7,000 beast so it might be a bit of an over kill !

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 Jul 2023 12:12 pm

I just remembered ! You can do a bit of those adjustments with a Tonealigner pickup which I don't make anymore but somebody else might pretty soon or try out the Colonics version of my pickup which it pains me to say might help.

This might help too. It's fully programable
https://www.tcelectronic.com/product.ht ... Code=P0CQ8

Fred · Post by **Fred** » 24 Jul 2023 4:46 pm

I have an old Gibson Melody Maker guitar with just a single coil bridge pickup. I tried different capacitors in the tone circuit and I could never get warm without getting muddy.

What finally worked was adding a coil like the old Gibson varitone circuit. Basically a coil, a capacitor and a pot. The coil and capacitor to ground create a band cut filter. It basically retunes the circuit. By selecting the right capacitor I got a deep cut in the upper mids but left a little sparkle on top. The pot controlled how deep the cut was.

With two different capacitors I got a lot variety from full on bridge to warm and fat without losing definition until the pot was all the way down.

One of these days I’ll add a volume and tone circuit to my Carter. I really miss having those when I play.

Glenn Demichele · Post by **Glenn Demichele** » 25 Jul 2023 1:53 pm

I chased the neck pickup for awhile for a different reason - to sound more hawaiian. Here's a that big thread with great comments.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... highlight=

So I used a Sentell pickup at the end of the fretboard, and got the sound I was chasing:

"OK: So I'm out of tune and I sound like I just ate a turkey and washed it down with a bottle of Nyquil, but my playing isn't the purpose of this video...
I'm playing the C6 neck on the Franklin D-10 with no pedals (or volume pedal) or effects. I recorded the stock franklin "bridge" pickup and a Sentell NC-18 "neck" pickup at the same time straight into the board, then flipped between them during the mixdown. Both tracks have an identical reverb plug-in added in the mix.
The first one you hear is the Franklin bridge pickup.
https://youtu.be/cbp4vpza5m8

Glenn Demichele · Post by **Glenn Demichele** » 25 Jul 2023 1:53 pm

I chased the neck pickup for awhile for a different reason - to sound more hawaiian. Here's a that big thread with great comments.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... highlight=

So I used a Sentell pickup at the end of the fretboard, and got the sound I was chasing:

"OK: So I'm out of tune and I sound like I just ate a turkey and washed it down with a bottle of Nyquil, but my playing isn't the purpose of this video...
I'm playing the C6 neck on the Franklin D-10 with no pedals (or volume pedal) or effects. I recorded the stock franklin "bridge" pickup and a Sentell NC-18 "neck" pickup at the same time straight into the board, then flipped between them during the mixdown. Both tracks have an identical reverb plug-in added in the mix.
The first one you hear is the Franklin bridge pickup.
https://youtu.be/cbp4vpza5m8