Carter Starter Modification?

[David Farrell]

Hi friends,

Has anyone taken a Carter Starter & added any changes to it, or changed the copedent?

The RKL lowers the 5th string 1/2 step. I'd love to make the RKL raise the 1st string a whole step, and maybe lower the 6th string a whole step too.

I know that the stock plate where the fingers stop doesn't accommodate any copedent changes. I'm wondering if anyone has modified this plate, or bought a different plate that doesn't limit the copedent.

Thank you for your time & opinions!


Thanks, Dave

[Norman Evans]

I don't have an answer for you, but would you mind sharing a pic of your Emmons '65 Resound?

[Ian Worley]

You can modify that stop plate for any and all strings to add lowers. It's worth noting that the stock plate is a bit flimsy and will start to bend over time from the lower return spring tension, so a better option if you have the proper tools and know-how is to fabricate a new, heavier plate. Add a similar strength spring to any finger with an open slot. The spring needs be to strong enough to hold the scissor in place against the plate during any raise on that string, but not too strong or it will inhibit the function of the lower. The trickiest part is adding bell cranks if necessary. Depending on the changes you're adding you may be able to just bend your pull rods enough to work with the existing fixed cranks, otherwise you may need to find or fabricate some easy-on cranks. On the stock RKL cross shaft you can use the fixed crank to swap the string 5 lower to string 6, but you would need to add a crank for the first string raise. For your RKL you can just remove the shaft and slip on any crank that will fit the shaft (5/16" I believe). Emmons LeGrande cranks will work for other positions between two fixed cranks if you drill and tap a secondary set screw in the flat part of the crank and drill or file a small indentation for it on the cross shaft to keep it from slipping. There are certainly other options too. Good luck!

[Jon Light]

I had written a lengthy post but found Ian's post waiting here when I submitted it. It pretty much covers what I had to say.

What I will add --

C-S intends you to use a wound 6th string. I'd guess that this is to deal with what the Carter folks (John Fabian and/or Bud Carter) found to be inadequate adjustability to achieve sync between 3 & 6. Carter pro guitars went so far as to have an entire gear-down mechanism to achieve plain 6th string sync. Which leads me to believe that they may have been a little extra-obsessed. The Starter does have adjustable holes at the crank and the changer so it's not hopeless.
All of this is a round about approach to the subject of wound 6th string and the length of throw necessary for a full step lower. You may be asking too much. A plain string is far more workable, if you can achieve 3 & 6 sync.

[Donny Hinson]

Of course, it can be done. All you need is a few basic tools and time. (And a few small bits of material/hardware.) To add the lower, you'd have to cut another slot in the stop-bar and add a spring. Cutting can be done with a hacksaw or saber-saw, and a file. You can make pullers yourself that clamp to the crossrod (picture below). Other than that, all you need is to thread and bend some rod with a button-die and die holder. A vise is handy, but not mandatory.

[Chris Brooks]

<The RKL lowers the 5th string 1/2 step.

I dunno, David, I like that 5th string flat change a lot . . . you might leave the Starter as is.

If you want to work on the guitar, you could beef up some of its existing components.

[Bob Sykes]

Here's how I changed my RKL lower. The drawings might be useful if you decide to replace the stop plate.
I miss having the first string raise. Might have to try fabricating a crank like Donny shows.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=203183&

[David Farrell]

I don't have an answer for you, but would you mind sharing a pic of your Emmons '65 Resound?

Norm,

I wish I could post a pic of my Emmons ReSound '65. I ordered it, but haven't received it yet.

I'll post pics as soon as I get it.

[David Farrell]

You can modify that stop plate for any and all strings to add lowers. It's worth noting that the stock plate is a bit flimsy and will start to bend over time from the lower return spring tension, so a better option if you have the proper tools and know-how is to fabricate a new, heavier plate. Add a similar strength spring to any finger with an open slot. The spring needs be to strong enough to hold the scissor in place against the plate during any raise on that string, but not too strong or it will inhibit the function of the lower. The trickiest part is adding bell cranks if necessary. Depending on the changes you're adding you may be able to just bend your pull rods enough to work with the existing fixed cranks, otherwise you may need to find or fabricate some easy-on cranks. On the stock RKL cross shaft you can use the fixed crank to swap the string 5 lower to string 6, but you would need to add a crank for the first string raise. For your RKL you can just remove the shaft and slip on any crank that will fit the shaft (5/16" I believe). Emmons LeGrande cranks will work for other positions between two fixed cranks if you drill and tap a secondary set screw in the flat part of the crank and drill or file a small indentation for it on the cross shaft to keep it from slipping. There are certainly other options too. Good luck!

Ian,

Thank you. I may be able to fix a new bell crank for the 1st string. I appreciate all your great insight.

[David Farrell]

I had written a lengthy post but found Ian's post waiting here when I submitted it. It pretty much covers what I had to say.

What I will add --

C-S intends you to use a wound 6th string. I'd guess that this is to deal with what the Carter folks (John Fabian and/or Bud Carter) found to be inadequate adjustability to achieve sync between 3 & 6. Carter pro guitars went so far as to have an entire gear-down mechanism to achieve plain 6th string sync. Which leads me to believe that they may have been a little extra-obsessed. The Starter does have adjustable holes at the crank and the changer so it's not hopeless.
All of this is a round about approach to the subject of wound 6th string and the length of throw necessary for a full step lower. You may be asking too much. A plain string is far more workable, if you can achieve 3 & 6 sync.

Thanks John!

[David Farrell]

<The RKL lowers the 5th string 1/2 step.

I dunno, David, I like that 5th string flat change a lot . . . you might leave the Starter as is.

If you want to work on the guitar, you could beef up some of its existing components.

Chris,

I agree that it is good as is. I like that change too.

I was really just somewhat interested in possibly tinkering with this guitar. If I screw it up, I think it could be fixed. Also, it's not a precious jewel of a guitar, so I wouldn't be too uptight about it, if I screwed it up.

[David Farrell]

Of course, it can be done. All you need is a few basic tools and time. (And a few small bits of material/hardware.) To add the lower, you'd have to cut another slot in the stop-bar and add a spring. Cutting can be done with a hacksaw or saber-saw, and a file. You can make pullers yourself that clamp to the crossrod (picture below). Other than that, all you need is to thread and bend some rod with a button-die and die holder. A vise is handy, but not mandatory.

Donny,

Thanks. I like your can do attitude. I think I'll take a hack at this one of these days.

[Justin Shaw]

Is it possible you've just outgrown it?

I had a Carter Starter and really liked it, but when I started wanting to make modifications I sold it and used the money towards a guitar that wasn't built as a fixed copedent guitar. While it's not a precious guitar, it's probably easier to sell in it's original state. I was surprised how much I was able to get for the Starter as it was. I'm not sure it would have gone so well if I had to explain that I made some modifications for fun, even if I had done them perfectly.

On the other hand if you like it, want to keep it, and will be happy with it if you make that one change, then why not?

[Norman Evans]

Thanks David.

[Jon Light]

Here's how I changed my RKL lower. The drawings might be useful if you decide to replace the stop plate.
I miss having the first string raise. Might have to try fabricating a crank like Donny shows.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=203183&

I am curious, Bob Sykes -- I am not at all surprised at your success in getting the 6th string lower sorted out with a plain string. How did that work out with the B pedal sync on strings 3 & 6 ?
As I said in my post above, my best guess about why Carter prescribed a wound string is for the purpose of 3/6 timing. I never had the time to experiment with the C-S I had on my bench a couple of times. I always strung it with the wound 6th.

[David Farrell]

Is it possible you've just outgrown it?

I had a Carter Starter and really liked it, but when I started wanting to make modifications I sold it and used the money towards a guitar that wasn't built as a fixed copedent guitar. While it's not a precious guitar, it's probably easier to sell in it's original state. I was surprised how much I was able to get for the Starter as it was. I'm not sure it would have gone so well if I had to explain that I made some modifications for fun, even if I had done them perfectly.

On the other hand if you like it, want to keep it, and will be happy with it if you make that one change, then why not?

Justin,

I originally bought this guitar real cheap on Craigslist & I do like it. I bought it as my 2nd steel guitar & I leave it at the practice room for my band.

I have other & better guitars that I use/prefer.

I'm mostly curious to see if I can successfully modify this guitar & make it more functional.

How much did you sell your starter for?

[Bob Sykes]

Jon, I didn't think to check (listen critically) to, or adjust, the synchronization of those strings at the time. It's not "bad" enough to offend my (or my bandmates) ears, but now I'll obsess over it Seriously this may be one of those subtle things that (collectively) somehow make my pro PSGs easier (smoother) to play. Just checked the D10 and it's spot-on.

Touching on Justin's post, I haven't outgrown my CS yet. I understand its weak points but I still gigged with it the past 3 weekends simply because of (light) weight and we're doing a fair amount of shows outdoors. Not skeered of rain.

CS is stored with my gig rig but I will take it to rehearsal this week and to a gig on Saturday. I'll evaluate the B pedal synch and report back. Maybe even improve it.

David, One other "easy" reversible improvement to improve a knee lever stop is by using an extra pull rod to a "locked" changer finger.

[Jon Light]

Bob -- ha! Didn't mean to plant this worm in your head. It is not something that obsesses me. I'm just playing off the logic that there are only two reasons I can think of why a maker would 'require' or strongly recommend a wound 6th -- the guitar has excessive cabinet drop (which I do not recall being an issue...not excessive, anyway) or there is something about the geometry of the guitar that makes it difficult to achieve thee leverage necessary to match the long throw of the 3rd string with the very short throw of the plain 6th.
So I am making assumptions about the C-S. If you have gotten it good enough, then that's all that matters.

One more thing I'll mention -- I posted not too long ago about the one single upgrade that I feel elevates the C-S to a much more solid instrument and that's creating positive stops for the left-moving levers, especially LKL. This is the single greatest error in thinking in the production of this guitar, IMO. The tiny amount of parts and labor it would have required to address this would have eliminated the greatest complaint I've seen, repeatedly, in discussions of the Carter Starter.

[David Farrell]

Bob -- ha! Didn't mean to plant this worm in your head. It is not something that obsesses me. I'm just playing off the logic that there are only two reasons I can think of why a maker would 'require' or strongly recommend a wound 6th -- the guitar has excessive cabinet drop (which I do not recall being an issue...not excessive, anyway) or there is something about the geometry of the guitar that makes it difficult to achieve thee leverage necessary to match the long throw of the 3rd string with the very short throw of the plain 6th.
So I am making assumptions about the C-S. If you have gotten it good enough, then that's all that matters.

One more thing I'll mention -- I posted not too long ago about the one single upgrade that I feel elevates the C-S to a much more solid instrument and that's creating positive stops for the left-moving levers, especially LKL. This is the single greatest error in thinking in the production of this guitar, IMO. The tiny amount of parts and labor it would have required to address this would have eliminated the greatest complaint I've seen, repeatedly, in discussions of the Carter Starter.

John,

Will you post a link to your comments on improving the levers please? Graci!

[Jon Light]

This link shows it.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... 93#3151193

Some narrative:
The operation required removing the levers and cutting away some of the end so it would not make contact with anything (that contact being the original 'stop') and filing away a bit from the side to allow that repurposed bellcrank to be the point of contact.
While the factory assembly hits the stop but then moves more if you lean into it, this rig is firm as can be.

IMO the LKL mod is essential, for intonation reasons. The RKL, although equally dodgy, can be lived with if one were looking to save time/effort.

[David Farrell]

This link shows it.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... 93#3151193

Some narrative:
The operation required removing the levers and cutting away some of the end so it would not make contact with anything (that contact being the original 'stop') and filing away a bit from the side to allow that repurposed bellcrank to be the point of contact.
While the factory assembly hits the stop but then moves more if you lean into it, this rig is firm as can be.

IMO the LKL mod is essential, for intonation reasons. The RKL, although equally dodgy, can be lived with if one were looking to save time/effort.

Thanks Jon!

[Bob Sykes]

Here's how I changed my RKL lower. The drawings might be useful if you decide to replace the stop plate.
I miss having the first string raise. Might have to try fabricating a crank like Donny shows.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=203183&

I am curious, Bob Sykes -- I am not at all surprised at your success in getting the 6th string lower sorted out with a plain string. How did that work out with the B pedal sync on strings 3 & 6 ?
As I said in my post above, my best guess about why Carter prescribed a wound string is for the purpose of 3/6 timing. I never had the time to experiment with the C-S I had on my bench a couple of times. I always strung it with the wound 6th.

Well I learned that my B pedal raise(s) are not synchronized very well on the CS. The 3rd string begins to raise while the rod on the 6th string is still taking up slack before the tuning nut contacts the changer. Both rods are on the bellcrank hole(s) closest to the cross-shaft and are on the changer hole(s) closest to the axle. Does this give me any possibility of getting the 6th string to raise sooner? It would seem moving the 6th string away from the cross shaft would do this but not sure what else this might affect. I'd like to get an experienced opinion before I start going down a rabbit hole of unproductive adjustments. Synchronizing pulls is new territory for me.

Thanks Jon. I have learned another steel guitar lesson. I truly appreciate that even if this can't be easily solved.

[Jon Light]

Hey Bob. There you go. It is set up for the wound string.

First -- be sure that you actually care. I would. But be sure that it does bother you in actuality and not just in concept.

Here's what you need -- you want the 3rd string's rod in the bellcrank hole farthest from the cross shaft. The 6th string should stay where it is. If necessary, the 6th string rod can be in the changer hole farther away from the axle.

We are trying to correct the mismatch between required pull length of the two strings by gaining maximum movement for the 3rd string and reducing the efficiency of the 6th string pull which (for a plain string) requires very little movement.

[Bob Sykes]

Jon, That seems to work beautifully. I love it!

My suspicion that it would increase needed force was confirmed when I could no longer actuate the B pedal cross shaft by pulling on the cranks by hand. I had to put the guitar together. The difference in pedal feel (force) however is almost imperceptible to me.

I'm all played out from last night but I'll give this a good workout at next rehearsal. I may never outgrow this PSG

Thanks!!

[Jon Light]

Great news.
Yeah, that's the Even Steven of this. More changer movement per centimeter of pedal travel results in less ergonomic advantage (ie a stiffer pedal).
If the situation were dire, there are a couple of hacky things that could be investigated (which might work or might cause more trouble than they cure). But it would be much better if you could live with it. As you well know, the Carter-Starter is better than many people give it credit for but it also was never intended to be tweaked super-fine.